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Post by silver on Sept 10, 2013 17:53:48 GMT -5
The "silence" of which ZD speaks is silence of the mind, i.e. without "thought"... As an aside, have you become a robot? i.e responding unconsciously in a knee jerk fashion from an extremely rigid and clung to belief system about perceived and perceiver? Hold on, I'll answer for you ;-) TRF: "Belief in a perceiver and perceived is a perception. And your view that I have become a robot that is only capable of responding from a fixed position is the result of you being absorbed in the perceived." :-) Actually there is no perception without thought...the sense of sight, sense of hearing, sense of feeling...ATA...silence of mind...a world...all are thoughts... Most likely it's a safety valve so that one doesn't sh*t their pants and die of fright from perceiving the unknown... As an aside, you and Enigma share the same imagined clarity in which he knows what it's like to be a tree and you know what it's like to be TRF... You haven't secretly infiltrated the squirrel satsangs have you?! You two are cracking me up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 18:21:31 GMT -5
The "silence" of which ZD speaks is silence of the mind, i.e. without "thought"... As an aside, have you become a robot? i.e responding unconsciously in a knee jerk fashion from an extremely rigid and clung to belief system about perceived and perceiver? Hold on, I'll answer for you ;-) TRF: "Belief in a perceiver and perceived is a perception. And your view that I have become a robot that is only capable of responding from a fixed position is the result of you being absorbed in the perceived." :-) Actually there is no perception without thought...the sense of sight, sense of hearing, sense of feeling...ATA...silence of mind...a world...all are thoughts... Most likely it's a safety valve so that one doesn't sh*t their pants and die of fright from perceiving the unknown... As an aside, you and Enigma share the same imagined clarity in which he knows what it's like to be a tree and you know what it's like to be TRF... You haven't secretly infiltrated the squirrel satsangs have you?! Agreed on that first bit, with the caveat that this knowledge ain't worth a hill of beans. To the middle bit: Too much psychology for me. To that last bit, this little wave of existence has no conscious awareness of sneaking into enigma's squirrel satsangs :-) I have no idea what its like to be "you", nor any interest in it, though I occasionally have interest in what appears to be a kind of default response sometimes on your part.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 18:24:58 GMT -5
Actually there is no perception without thought...the sense of sight, sense of hearing, sense of feeling...ATA...silence of mind...a world...all are thoughts... Most likely it's a safety valve so that one doesn't sh*t their pants and die of fright from perceiving the unknown... As an aside, you and Enigma share the same imagined clarity in which he knows what it's like to be a tree and you know what it's like to be TRF... You haven't secretly infiltrated the squirrel satsangs have you?! You two are cracking me up. Ahh....here comes the shít stirrer lol Or rather, the fire stoker.....sorry silver, not enough heat left in these charcoals to stir up a flame lol
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 19:51:40 GMT -5
Actually there is no perception without thought...the sense of sight, sense of hearing, sense of feeling...ATA...silence of mind...a world...all are thoughts... Most likely it's a safety valve so that one doesn't sh*t their pants and die of fright from perceiving the unknown... As an aside, you and Enigma share the same imagined clarity in which he knows what it's like to be a tree and you know what it's like to be TRF... You haven't secretly infiltrated the squirrel satsangs have you?! Agreed on that first bit, with the caveat that this knowledge ain't worth a hill of beans. To the middle bit: Too much psychology for me. To that last bit, this little wave of existence has no conscious awareness of sneaking into enigma's squirrel satsangs :-) I have no idea what its like to be "you", nor any interest in it, though I occasionally have interest in what appears to be a kind of default response sometimes on your part. Heh, so much 'self importance' for a self that is never actually perceived...
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Post by silence on Sept 10, 2013 20:13:41 GMT -5
You can't have silence without sound or the sense of hearing... Where there is silence there is sound and where there is sound there is silence... It's something that is perceived when one see's the world without thought... The "silence" of which ZD speaks is silence of the mind, i.e. without "thought"... As an aside, have you become a robot? i.e responding unconsciously in a knee jerk fashion from an extremely rigid and clung to belief system about perceived and perceiver? Hold on, I'll answer for you ;-) TRF: "Belief in a perceiver and perceived is a perception. And your view that I have become a robot that is only capable of responding from a fixed position is the result of you being absorbed in the perceived." :-) It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 20:51:56 GMT -5
The "silence" of which ZD speaks is silence of the mind, i.e. without "thought"... As an aside, have you become a robot? i.e responding unconsciously in a knee jerk fashion from an extremely rigid and clung to belief system about perceived and perceiver? Hold on, I'll answer for you ;-) TRF: "Belief in a perceiver and perceived is a perception. And your view that I have become a robot that is only capable of responding from a fixed position is the result of you being absorbed in the perceived." :-) It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go. Yeah, whats seems to happen from my own experience, and from watching folks like TRF and Tzu from a while back, is that one has a shift in perspective from mind absorption to pure observational conciousness for a period, and that shift in perspective leads to a realization in the mind, in short, mind is informed by the shift. But then one can end up clinging to that realization in the mind with a kind of death grip that blocks almost everything else out. Then one procedes to defend that realization by proselytizing it with a kind of one note, emotionless rigidity....in some ways its loke one becomes a computer, or a Vulcan, (Star Trek Reference), where one is rigidly bound to the specific and cold logic of their realization. Thats why I'm a fan of letting go of realizations, they are just to easy to cling to in a way that gets one even more mind absorbed than they were before the realization. Its kinda like: Yeah, enlightenment happened, but so what, I'll just let that go. In my view, enlightenment, or kensho, or realization, whatever you want to call it, should be dropped like a hot potato once its happened, otherwise it becomes a deeper trap than you were imagining before. Said another way, a shift in perspective from mind absorption to empty awareness absorption; (what TRF calls the perciever), leads to a realization that informs mind, but instead of remaining absorbed in the empty awareness aspect of self, one may cling to the realization and get absorbed in mind again, only this time, a more rigid mind that only interacts and experiences the world through a fixed viewpoint. Even if that viewpoint is, as you say, technically true, if one clings to it rigidly, then one is still trapped by it.... Trapped by the truth. What often happens though, as seems to be the case with Tzu over time, and certainly myself, is that the longer the mind lives with the realization, the less one's mind clings to it and fights tooth and nail to defend it. The reason I'm such a proponent of "practice" around these parts, is that I see a lot of clinging to in-formation of mind by realization; which is a kind of rigid mind absorption, instead of the shift in perspective that initiated the realization. To me, too much emphasis is placed on the informing of mind by realization, instead of the "state" or perspective that opened the realization. My advice, for what its worth, is to drop the information of mind caused by realization, and stick with that which engendered the realization, which, in most cases, is an absorption in awareness instead of mind movement....and if it takes "practices" to maintain that, okay. To me the goal of all this is not realization. Realization is almost a by-product, being absorbed in undifferentiated awareness instead of mind is both the path and the destination, and realization is just an event that informs mind aling the way....and should mot be clung to. This is not to say that realization is not important, its just that realization, or rather the mind informed by realization, can be both a trap and a liberation. Maybe what happens is that the big realizations undo so much Mind that one ends up REALLY clinging to the sliver that is left, that holds onto the ONE "truth" thats left to it. Thats why its good to find out what your deepest foundational "truth" is....and let it go. I try not to hold onto ANY truths, except the ones that pay the rent when the bill is due, and then I let go of those until rent is due again lol
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Post by laughter on Sept 10, 2013 20:57:25 GMT -5
It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go. Yeah, whats seems to happen from my own experience, and from watching folks like TRF and Tzu from a while back, is that one has a shift in perspective from mind absorption to pure observational conciousness for a period, and that shift in perspective leads to a realization in the mind, in short, mind is informed by the shift. But then one can end up clinging to that realization in the mind with a kind of death grip that blocks almost everything else out. Then one procedes to defend that realization by proselytizing it with a kind of one note, emotionless rigidity....in some ways its loke one becomes a computer, or a Vulcan, (Star Trek Reference), where one is rigidly bound to the specific and cold logic of their realization. Thats why I'm a fan of letting go of realizations, they are just to easy to cling to in a way that gets one even more mind absorbed than they were before the realization. Its kinda like: Yeah, enlightenment happened, but so what, I'll just let that go. In my view, enlightenment, or kensho, or realization, whatever you want to call it, should be dropped like a hot potato once its happened, otherwise it becomes a deeper trap than you were imagining before. Said another way, a shift in perspective from mind absorption to empty awareness absorption; (what TRF calls the perciever), leads to a realization that informs mind, but instead of remaining absorbed in the empty awareness aspect of self, one may cling to the realization and get absorbed in mind again, only this time, a more rigid mind that only interacts and experiences the world through a fixed viewpoint. Even if that viewpoint is, as you say, technically true, if one clings to it rigidly, then one is still trapped by it.... Trapped by the truth. What often happens though, as seems to be the case with Tzu over time, and certainly myself, is that the longer the mind lives with the realization, the less one's mind clings to it and fights tooth and nail to defend it. The reason I'm such a proponent of "practice" around these parts, is that I see a lot of clinging to in-formation of mind by realization; which is a kind of rigid mind absorption, instead of the shift in perspective that initiated the realization. To me, too much emphasis is placed on the informing of mind by realization, instead of the "state" or perspective that opened the realization. My advice, fir what its worth, is to drop the information of mind caused by realization, and stick with that which engendered the realization, which, in most cases, is an absorption in awareness instead of mind movement....and if it takes "practices" to maintain that, okay. To me the goal of all this is not realization. Realization is almost a by-product, being absorbed in indifferentiated awareness instead of mind is both the path and the destination, and realization is just an event that informs mind aling the way....and should mot be clung to. Not gonna say anything about trf here but this pattern that you and Si have described is one I've observed in myself, by watching the thinker, and I take this to mean what the 3M's refer to by split-mind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 21:17:14 GMT -5
Yeah, whats seems to happen from my own experience, and from watching folks like TRF and Tzu from a while back, is that one has a shift in perspective from mind absorption to pure observational conciousness for a period, and that shift in perspective leads to a realization in the mind, in short, mind is informed by the shift. But then one can end up clinging to that realization in the mind with a kind of death grip that blocks almost everything else out. Then one procedes to defend that realization by proselytizing it with a kind of one note, emotionless rigidity....in some ways its loke one becomes a computer, or a Vulcan, (Star Trek Reference), where one is rigidly bound to the specific and cold logic of their realization. Thats why I'm a fan of letting go of realizations, they are just to easy to cling to in a way that gets one even more mind absorbed than they were before the realization. Its kinda like: Yeah, enlightenment happened, but so what, I'll just let that go. In my view, enlightenment, or kensho, or realization, whatever you want to call it, should be dropped like a hot potato once its happened, otherwise it becomes a deeper trap than you were imagining before. Said another way, a shift in perspective from mind absorption to empty awareness absorption; (what TRF calls the perciever), leads to a realization that informs mind, but instead of remaining absorbed in the empty awareness aspect of self, one may cling to the realization and get absorbed in mind again, only this time, a more rigid mind that only interacts and experiences the world through a fixed viewpoint. Even if that viewpoint is, as you say, technically true, if one clings to it rigidly, then one is still trapped by it.... Trapped by the truth. What often happens though, as seems to be the case with Tzu over time, and certainly myself, is that the longer the mind lives with the realization, the less one's mind clings to it and fights tooth and nail to defend it. The reason I'm such a proponent of "practice" around these parts, is that I see a lot of clinging to in-formation of mind by realization; which is a kind of rigid mind absorption, instead of the shift in perspective that initiated the realization. To me, too much emphasis is placed on the informing of mind by realization, instead of the "state" or perspective that opened the realization. My advice, fir what its worth, is to drop the information of mind caused by realization, and stick with that which engendered the realization, which, in most cases, is an absorption in awareness instead of mind movement....and if it takes "practices" to maintain that, okay. To me the goal of all this is not realization. Realization is almost a by-product, being absorbed in indifferentiated awareness instead of mind is both the path and the destination, and realization is just an event that informs mind aling the way....and should mot be clung to. Not gonna say anything about trf here but this pattern that you and Si have described is one I've observed in myself, by watching the thinker, and I take this to mean what the 3M's refer to by split-mind. Yeah, yuh know in some ways I feel as though I've gone back to the very beginning again. 25 or so years ago my first real steps on this path was to step back and be the observer of my own mind. Countless Kensho later and decades of exploration, and I'm right back to where I started, which is, don't cling to anything, and just just remain the detached witness. The only real difference, is that 25 years ago I only saw mind as word thoughts, now everything is mind....my thought, my body, my actions, my environment, all the experiences of existence....all just one melded flowing occurrence. And the moment any of it is defined, in a way, its lost. When one remains the detached witness, without defining anything, the witness disappears, and whats left is undefinable.
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Post by laughter on Sept 10, 2013 21:32:36 GMT -5
Not gonna say anything about trf here but this pattern that you and Si have described is one I've observed in myself, by watching the thinker, and I take this to mean what the 3M's refer to by split-mind. Yeah, yuh know in some ways I feel as though I've gone back to the very beginning again. 25 or so years ago my first real steps on this path was to step back and be the observer of my own mind. Countless Kensho later and decades of exploration, and I'm right back to where I started, which is, don't cling to anything, and just just remain the detached witness. The only real difference, is that 25 years ago I only saw mind as word thoughts, now everything is mind....my thought, my body, my actions, my environment, all the experiences of existence....all just one melded flowing occurrence. And the moment any of it is defined, in a way, its lost.
When one remains the detached witness, without defining anything, the witness disappears, and whats left is undefinable.yup
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 21:44:35 GMT -5
The "silence" of which ZD speaks is silence of the mind, i.e. without "thought"... As an aside, have you become a robot? i.e responding unconsciously in a knee jerk fashion from an extremely rigid and clung to belief system about perceived and perceiver? Hold on, I'll answer for you ;-) TRF: "Belief in a perceiver and perceived is a perception. And your view that I have become a robot that is only capable of responding from a fixed position is the result of you being absorbed in the perceived." :-) It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go. Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 22:01:16 GMT -5
It's an interesting phenomenon because some of what's said isn't technically false and yet it requires almost no common sense to see that there's something quite "off" happening with him. What I basically attribute it to is the fact that mind is never actually out of the picture. The whole business labeled spirituality is really just about healing mind and yet mind's insistence on attaching to the perfect explanation or view point is part of the illness. The tendency to objectify truth into something mind can hold up and examine is all too tempting for most and so one spends however long it takes to finally admit that's not it and try again to let go. Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment... What, if anything.....are you defending?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 22:02:55 GMT -5
Yeah, yuh know in some ways I feel as though I've gone back to the very beginning again. 25 or so years ago my first real steps on this path was to step back and be the observer of my own mind. Countless Kensho later and decades of exploration, and I'm right back to where I started, which is, don't cling to anything, and just just remain the detached witness. The only real difference, is that 25 years ago I only saw mind as word thoughts, now everything is mind....my thought, my body, my actions, my environment, all the experiences of existence....all just one melded flowing occurrence. And the moment any of it is defined, in a way, its lost.
When one remains the detached witness, without defining anything, the witness disappears, and whats left is undefinable.yup We are 'human beings' or rather being playing the role of a human...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 22:05:00 GMT -5
Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment... What, if anything.....are you defending? Defending?! I'm perceiving an oxymoron...
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Post by silver on Sept 10, 2013 22:12:18 GMT -5
Your screen name of Silence is really an oxymoron, in light of the fact you've never been able to stop thinking for even a moment... What, if anything.....are you defending? It looks to me, like he's just making an observation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2013 22:34:10 GMT -5
We are 'human beings' or rather being playing the role of a human... Whats the truth before defining, and knowing that?
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