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Post by jasonl on Dec 14, 2012 9:28:50 GMT -5
The person isn't going to realize it isn't a person, obviously, which is why I don't really rez with the idea of separate people having temporal realizations about the nature of reality or more pointedly what reality isn't. If it is seen that what is conscious of what is appearing is not that which is appearing, there is nothing gained in the apparent reality where the imagined separate person resides. That separate person, or, more precisely, the mind which is conditioned to think and emote as that separate person, can conceptualize what reality is into another idea of what reality isn't. That's the best it can do. "Seeing the illusion of separation for what it is", and then conceptualizing that seeing as that which is generating the illusion in the first place, is nothing more than an insight, which in and of itself, won't necessarily collapse the belief in the imagined reality of separation. More often than not, the conceptualization of what is seen is, in a logical, calculated, even if unconscious fashion, incorporated into a new belief structure to patch up the holes which have been punctured in the old. Things might seem really illogical on the surface from structure to structure, but the motivation behind cozyness with confusion is entirely logical and fully understandable. Your world never was nor will it ever be anything more than an imagined one. You aren't going to be able to escape from what you were never in to begin with. You can't help but feel the implications of that world while appearing as a separate form which is conditioned to think and feel in uncontrollable ways based on that same imagined world. It is the delusion that you are the thinking and feeling entity which is the issue. Seeing through that delusion isn't going to put an end to the thinking and feeling entity or to the appearance of thinking and feeling. You don't have suppress your own ability to dream. What you imagine to be isn't what actually is. Its what you are imagining you have to avoid that creates the idea that there is some other freedom you have to find.
What we're left with is a person who believes it isn't a person and wants to know what's in it for the person. So, how can a person believe it isn't a person if there is no person in the first place? Well, obviously, 'it' can't. There is a conditioned movement of thought within which the belief in separation arises. It is this same conditioned movement of thought which conceptualizes oneness into bits and pieces for the purpose of understanding, and more pointedly, un-misunderstanding that which was never true to begin with. Its not like a belief in separation is any less true than a belief in oneness or no self. If we see a belief in no self manifesting through surface level thinking, we have to ask ourselves, why is that happening? What's going on beneath the surface?
Mind can't simply recognize that its harboring unconsciousness and then dive into that which its already programmed to avoid. You start at the top and you work your way down. You pinpoint your own confusion and then you embody that confusion into a question that you think will provide you with clarity. You then dismantle any and all assumptions to that question because none of them are true. You feel the implications of that through to the core and wait for the next bout of confusion so you can do it all over again. You pour gasoline on delusion by understanding it conceptually, you light it up like a jack-o-lantern with a singular focus and razor-like intention.
If, up on the surface, there is a vague somnambulistic confusion with regard to what mind is actually confused about, the intention won't formulate and nothing is going to burn. You have to hone it and sharpen it. Waking up isn't about finding freedom, its about dismantling the avoidance, seeing through the impostor, which ironically, can only be done as that impostor. Seeking truth is about avoiding it, nothing more. The question is how is that avoidance happening and is there a willingness to notice it, to becomes conscious of it. Is there a tendency to avoid feeling a certain way? Is it working? This tendency can even manifest as mind trying to 'be present', which I sometimes call spiritual repression. If you can notice that tendency, notice mind not wanting to feel a certain way, could you possibly be the mind that doesn't want to feel that way? Or are you what notices that? And if you notice the tendency to repress, if 'you' are what is 'conscious' of that, and not the mind which is 'doing it', then mind is free to stop avoiding itself whenever it no longer wants to do that. TO be in a perpetual state of self avoidance is not freedom, its freedom with a clause, freedom with a job to do, freedom dependent on things being a certain way and a person that doesn't ultimately exist not feeling another way. WHat happens if you invite these unpleasant feelings in, take a seat with them at the dinner table, and see if there's anything actually behind them, or if its just the fear of them which is making them seem like they're actually 'real'. You are and always will be free to feel however you are geared up to do so. When mind isn't thinking along other lines feelings can't possibly be a problem.
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Post by esponja on Dec 14, 2012 10:11:27 GMT -5
Mmmm I often find I need to be in the mood to ponder and right now I'm too distracted so will come back later to these great posts. (The other's might reply first).
The part that sticks out is 'seeking truth is about avoiding it'. What Silence said too...gonna take some time (when life is a bit less hectic to relax and look into what you all wrote. Will report back.
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Post by enigma on Dec 14, 2012 11:56:36 GMT -5
Mmmm I often find I need to be in the mood to ponder and right now I'm too distracted so will come back later to these great posts. (The other's might reply first). The part that sticks out is 'seeking truth is about avoiding it'. What Silence said too...gonna take some time (when life is a bit less hectic to relax and look into what you all wrote. Will report back. Just another avoidance tactic.... (JK)
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Post by esponja on Dec 14, 2012 19:31:14 GMT -5
Mmmm I often find I need to be in the mood to ponder and right now I'm too distracted so will come back later to these great posts. (The other's might reply first). The part that sticks out is 'seeking truth is about avoiding it'. What Silence said too...gonna take some time (when life is a bit less hectic to relax and look into what you all wrote. Will report back. Just another avoidance tactic.... (JK) Knew someone would say that and is probably right but I need time to soak in what has been written, at the moment it's just words on a screen.
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Post by Reefs on Dec 15, 2012 6:53:31 GMT -5
You talk about reincarnation as if it were fact. You're plagued by your belief in ideas that have absolutely no relevance to your life right now. Stop the silliness and say goodbye to the boogie man. So, Silence, you say that my pain comes from constantly hitting myself over the head with a hammer? And you say to stop the pain I just have to put the reincarnation hammer aside? Hm. I don't find that very practical. Don't you have any better suggestions? ;D
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Post by Reefs on Dec 15, 2012 7:03:22 GMT -5
The person isn't going to realize it isn't a person, obviously, which is why I don't really rez with the idea of separate people having temporal realizations about the nature of reality or more pointedly what reality isn't. If it is seen that what is conscious of what is appearing is not that which is appearing, there is nothing gained in the apparent reality where the imagined separate person resides. That separate person, or, more precisely, the mind which is conditioned to think and emote as that separate person, can conceptualize what reality is into another idea of what reality isn't. That's the best it can do. "Seeing the illusion of separation for what it is", and then conceptualizing that seeing as that which is generating the illusion in the first place, is nothing more than an insight, which in and of itself, won't necessarily collapse the belief in the imagined reality of separation. More often than not, the conceptualization of what is seen is, in a logical, calculated, even if unconscious fashion, incorporated into a new belief structure to patch up the holes which have been punctured in the old. Things might seem really illogical on the surface from structure to structure, but the motivation behind cozyness with confusion is entirely logical and fully understandable. Your world never was nor will it ever be anything more than an imagined one. You aren't going to be able to escape from what you were never in to begin with. You can't help but feel the implications of that world while appearing as a separate form which is conditioned to think and feel in uncontrollable ways based on that same imagined world. It is the delusion that you are the thinking and feeling entity which is the issue. Seeing through that delusion isn't going to put an end to the thinking and feeling entity or to the appearance of thinking and feeling. You don't have suppress your own ability to dream. What you imagine to be isn't what actually is. Its what you are imagining you have to avoid that creates the idea that there is some other freedom you have to find. What we're left with is a person who believes it isn't a person and wants to know what's in it for the person. So, how can a person believe it isn't a person if there is no person in the first place? Well, obviously, 'it' can't. There is a conditioned movement of thought within which the belief in separation arises. It is this same conditioned movement of thought which conceptualizes oneness into bits and pieces for the purpose of understanding, and more pointedly, un-misunderstanding that which was never true to begin with. Its not like a belief in separation is any less true than a belief in oneness or no self. If we see a belief in no self manifesting through surface level thinking, we have to ask ourselves, why is that happening? What's going on beneath the surface? Mind can't simply recognize that its harboring unconsciousness and then dive into that which its already programmed to avoid. You start at the top and you work your way down. You pinpoint your own confusion and then you embody that confusion into a question that you think will provide you with clarity. You then dismantle any and all assumptions to that question because none of them are true. You feel the implications of that through to the core and wait for the next bout of confusion so you can do it all over again. You pour gasoline on delusion by understanding it conceptually, you light it up like a jack-o-lantern with a singular focus and razor-like intention. If, up on the surface, there is a vague somnambulistic confusion with regard to what mind is actually confused about, the intention won't formulate and nothing is going to burn. You have to hone it and sharpen it. Waking up isn't about finding freedom, its about dismantling the avoidance, seeing through the impostor, which ironically, can only be done as that impostor. Seeking truth is about avoiding it, nothing more. The question is how is that avoidance happening and is there a willingness to notice it, to becomes conscious of it. Is there a tendency to avoid feeling a certain way? Is it working? This tendency can even manifest as mind trying to 'be present', which I sometimes call spiritual repression. If you can notice that tendency, notice mind not wanting to feel a certain way, could you possibly be the mind that doesn't want to feel that way? Or are you what notices that? And if you notice the tendency to repress, if 'you' are what is 'conscious' of that, and not the mind which is 'doing it', then mind is free to stop avoiding itself whenever it no longer wants to do that. TO be in a perpetual state of self avoidance is not freedom, its freedom with a clause, freedom with a job to do, freedom dependent on things being a certain way and a person that doesn't ultimately exist not feeling another way. WHat happens if you invite these unpleasant feelings in, take a seat with them at the dinner table, and see if there's anything actually behind them, or if its just the fear of them which is making them seem like they're actually 'real'. You are and always will be free to feel however you are geared up to do so. When mind isn't thinking along other lines feelings can't possibly be a problem. Yup, shame on you, mind!
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Post by midnight on Dec 15, 2012 7:32:05 GMT -5
Although I see what you're saying, mind plays countless games and it still seems to me that (and as you say above it may require constant maintenance as that's how it feels to me) the big 'belief' still has to somehow fall away, and until it does you're stuck playing games. Perhaps the big belief is actually about the idea that the spiritual journey you're on is going to make your life easy or some variation of that and less to do with a self falling away. guilty
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Post by topology on Dec 15, 2012 8:52:35 GMT -5
Perhaps the big belief is actually about the idea that the spiritual journey you're on is going to make your life easy or some variation of that and less to do with a self falling away. guilty Progress!!! Why do you want an easier life?
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Post by jasonl on Dec 15, 2012 11:30:53 GMT -5
The person isn't going to realize it isn't a person, obviously, which is why I don't really rez with the idea of separate people having temporal realizations about the nature of reality or more pointedly what reality isn't. If it is seen that what is conscious of what is appearing is not that which is appearing, there is nothing gained in the apparent reality where the imagined separate person resides. That separate person, or, more precisely, the mind which is conditioned to think and emote as that separate person, can conceptualize what reality is into another idea of what reality isn't. That's the best it can do. "Seeing the illusion of separation for what it is", and then conceptualizing that seeing as that which is generating the illusion in the first place, is nothing more than an insight, which in and of itself, won't necessarily collapse the belief in the imagined reality of separation. More often than not, the conceptualization of what is seen is, in a logical, calculated, even if unconscious fashion, incorporated into a new belief structure to patch up the holes which have been punctured in the old. Things might seem really illogical on the surface from structure to structure, but the motivation behind cozyness with confusion is entirely logical and fully understandable. Your world never was nor will it ever be anything more than an imagined one. You aren't going to be able to escape from what you were never in to begin with. You can't help but feel the implications of that world while appearing as a separate form which is conditioned to think and feel in uncontrollable ways based on that same imagined world. It is the delusion that you are the thinking and feeling entity which is the issue. Seeing through that delusion isn't going to put an end to the thinking and feeling entity or to the appearance of thinking and feeling. You don't have suppress your own ability to dream. What you imagine to be isn't what actually is. Its what you are imagining you have to avoid that creates the idea that there is some other freedom you have to find. What we're left with is a person who believes it isn't a person and wants to know what's in it for the person. So, how can a person believe it isn't a person if there is no person in the first place? Well, obviously, 'it' can't. There is a conditioned movement of thought within which the belief in separation arises. It is this same conditioned movement of thought which conceptualizes oneness into bits and pieces for the purpose of understanding, and more pointedly, un-misunderstanding that which was never true to begin with. Its not like a belief in separation is any less true than a belief in oneness or no self. If we see a belief in no self manifesting through surface level thinking, we have to ask ourselves, why is that happening? What's going on beneath the surface? Mind can't simply recognize that its harboring unconsciousness and then dive into that which its already programmed to avoid. You start at the top and you work your way down. You pinpoint your own confusion and then you embody that confusion into a question that you think will provide you with clarity. You then dismantle any and all assumptions to that question because none of them are true. You feel the implications of that through to the core and wait for the next bout of confusion so you can do it all over again. You pour gasoline on delusion by understanding it conceptually, you light it up like a jack-o-lantern with a singular focus and razor-like intention. If, up on the surface, there is a vague somnambulistic confusion with regard to what mind is actually confused about, the intention won't formulate and nothing is going to burn. You have to hone it and sharpen it. Waking up isn't about finding freedom, its about dismantling the avoidance, seeing through the impostor, which ironically, can only be done as that impostor. Seeking truth is about avoiding it, nothing more. The question is how is that avoidance happening and is there a willingness to notice it, to becomes conscious of it. Is there a tendency to avoid feeling a certain way? Is it working? This tendency can even manifest as mind trying to 'be present', which I sometimes call spiritual repression. If you can notice that tendency, notice mind not wanting to feel a certain way, could you possibly be the mind that doesn't want to feel that way? Or are you what notices that? And if you notice the tendency to repress, if 'you' are what is 'conscious' of that, and not the mind which is 'doing it', then mind is free to stop avoiding itself whenever it no longer wants to do that. TO be in a perpetual state of self avoidance is not freedom, its freedom with a clause, freedom with a job to do, freedom dependent on things being a certain way and a person that doesn't ultimately exist not feeling another way. WHat happens if you invite these unpleasant feelings in, take a seat with them at the dinner table, and see if there's anything actually behind them, or if its just the fear of them which is making them seem like they're actually 'real'. You are and always will be free to feel however you are geared up to do so. When mind isn't thinking along other lines feelings can't possibly be a problem. Yup, shame on you, mind! Tisk tisk tisk!
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Post by midnight on Dec 15, 2012 11:45:19 GMT -5
Progress!!! Why do you want an easier life? Well, I dunno if it was about that specifically, it was definitely about wanting to be a better person, be more confident, less hateful and angry, be more happy, etc. That's why I started reading Tolle and Maharaj and stuff like that. It was all self-improvement but I lied to myself and said I wanted 'truth' or something. I just wanted to be better than others.. more knowledgable. I thought spirituality could get me there, but bear in mind this was back in 2010 before I became depersonalised. Nowadays I don't really care about anything cos I don't feel like a self anymore.
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Post by laughter on Dec 15, 2012 13:16:02 GMT -5
The truth you seek is in the emptiness you fear, so it's hard to say something has gone wrong. There can be a subtle 'removal' of the one who dreads the emptiness, and what remains is the truth, which cannot be removed. It does get quite subtle, though, so you may need to relax a bit to get a sense of it. Right now, in this precise moment, everything is okay. Nothing is okay, Arcanum. It scares me to death that I am the one who will always see the suffering, pain and misery in front of me and there will never be an escape. I'm forever doomed to suffering and even enlightenment isn't an escape from it because in the next dream I re-identify with the arising person and the show will go on. Where is the exit ? It is a futil game, life is a futile game. You will turn around endlessly searching for something. Even in your deathbed you are hoping that life will go on and your stupid desires are fullfiled soon. How utterly futil is this game ? It is a game you cannot win and even suicide is no option. "A stupid death brings forth a stupid birth." Niz I can only lie on the floor, hammering with my hand on it and weeping in many tears... Freddy, Is it an endless repetition that horrifies you? If it is I've got a simple, perhaps naive question for you.
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Post by topology on Dec 15, 2012 13:24:00 GMT -5
Progress!!! Why do you want an easier life? Well, I dunno if it was about that specifically, it was definitely about wanting to be a better person, be more confident, less hateful and angry, be more happy, etc. That's why I started reading Tolle and Maharaj and stuff like that. It was all self-improvement but I lied to myself and said I wanted 'truth' or something. I just wanted to be better than others.. more knowledgable. I thought spirituality could get me there, but bear in mind this was back in 2010 before I became depersonalised. Nowadays I don't really care about anything cos I don't feel like a self anymore. Are you now okay with being depersonalized?
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Post by enigma on Dec 15, 2012 13:45:09 GMT -5
You talk about reincarnation as if it were fact. You're plagued by your belief in ideas that have absolutely no relevance to your life right now. Stop the silliness and say goodbye to the boogie man. So, Silence, you say that my pain comes from constantly hitting myself over the head with a hammer? And you say to stop the pain I just have to put the reincarnation hammer aside? Hm. I don't find that very practical. Don't you have any better suggestions? ;D Yeah, seems like he could at least give us some nails to hammer on or sumthin.
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Post by enigma on Dec 15, 2012 14:04:41 GMT -5
Progress!!! Why do you want an easier life? Well, I dunno if it was about that specifically, it was definitely about wanting to be a better person, be more confident, less hateful and angry, be more happy, etc. That's why I started reading Tolle and Maharaj and stuff like that. It was all self-improvement but I lied to myself and said I wanted 'truth' or something. I just wanted to be better than others.. more knowledgable. I thought spirituality could get me there, but bear in mind this was back in 2010 before I became depersonalised. Nowadays I don't really care about anything cos I don't feel like a self anymore. You care about not feeling like a self, which is extremely odd.
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Post by silence on Dec 15, 2012 15:07:08 GMT -5
You talk about reincarnation as if it were fact. You're plagued by your belief in ideas that have absolutely no relevance to your life right now. Stop the silliness and say goodbye to the boogie man. So, Silence, you say that my pain comes from constantly hitting myself over the head with a hammer? And you say to stop the pain I just have to put the reincarnation hammer aside? Hm. I don't find that very practical. Don't you have any better suggestions? ;D Well, you can always roll the dice and visit a fortune teller. Who knows, your next life might be really sweet. You might be an enlightened billionaire who rides jetski's all day while talking to jesus.
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