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Post by silver on Aug 14, 2012 19:52:16 GMT -5
Thx for the idea ZD ~ I love this song.
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Post by Portto on Aug 14, 2012 20:34:49 GMT -5
Hehe. Axchooly, the physics doesn't entirely dismiss the idea. Water doesn't compress well at all, which is why if you hit it fast enough it feels a lot like concrete. However, finding really, really good water repellent shoes is the wrong idea all together. ;D Would you recommend hydrophilic sponges for shoes instead? ;D
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Post by silver on Aug 14, 2012 22:29:47 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it.
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Post by enigma on Aug 15, 2012 0:14:15 GMT -5
Hehe. Axchooly, the physics doesn't entirely dismiss the idea. Water doesn't compress well at all, which is why if you hit it fast enough it feels a lot like concrete. However, finding really, really good water repellent shoes is the wrong idea all together. ;D Would you recommend hydrophilic sponges for shoes instead? ;D **Googling 'hydrophilic sponge'........** "Hydrophilic Foam Blah, blah, blah.... can retain up to 15 times its weight in liquids." Well, there's no advantage there either. Running on water would be more about hydroplaning and fluid dynamics than shoe buoyancy. Water doesn't flatten no matter how hard you hit it, it just moves out of the way, but it takes a while.
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Post by enigma on Aug 15, 2012 0:24:33 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. I don't think the story has anything to do with right or wrong, showing off, jealousy or owning. I don't know that it ever even happened. My impression (though I don't know much about Zen) is that such stories are intended to teach something rather than document or entertain. In this case, it would seem to be a warning about pursuing woo woo abilities at the expense of truth realization, which one assumes is the goal in Zen. BTW, the story wasn't about somebody swimming in shallow water. ;D
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Post by mamza on Aug 15, 2012 0:32:32 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. I don't think it was really about the student showing off. The teacher was trying to prevent the student from becoming attached to the miraculous nature of what he/she was doing. It sounds like a wonderful experience that would make you feel incredibly special. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But the feelings of specialness that the student would inevitably attach to would be the exact thing he/she's learning to avoid. Those feelings would solidify his/her belief that he/she is a separate person in a separate world. Which is pretty much the illusion zen attempts to dispel.
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Post by silver on Aug 15, 2012 1:30:07 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. I don't think the story has anything to do with right or wrong, showing off, jealousy or owning. I don't know that it ever even happened. My impression (though I don't know much about Zen) is that such stories are intended to teach something rather than document or entertain. In this case, it would seem to be a warning about pursuing woo woo abilities at the expense of truth realization, which one assumes is the goal in Zen. BTW, the story wasn't about somebody swimming in shallow water. ;D I'm unaware if it's intended to document or entertain, either. I did not see it as a specific lesson type of story, per se, so I took it more or less at face value (assumed it was based on a true story). Since St. Francis and plenty of other folks have a special rapport with animals, I just thought it was over-reaction on the teacher's part. I realize I haven't been where you guys have, so I won't respond to things the same way. So, now I see what you're saying about it being a warning about woo woo abilities - but if Zen training (I picture Kung Fu) is about highly specialized training, whether it's martial arts/self-defense or what have you, it doesn't strike me as a very good lesson. Mainly because I don't know what having a special rapport w/animals has to do with any woo woo stuff. and this is the part about the shallow water: 'Many people, such as St. Francis of Assisi, have communed with animals. One famous Zen story concerned a monk who had a big kensho experience, and afterwards birds would fly down and sit on his shoulder and deer would follow him around. His teacher saw him one day with birds sitting on his shoulders, and he whacked him with his Zen stick and told him "to stop playing in the shallow water." ...You probly knew that.
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Post by silver on Aug 15, 2012 1:34:43 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. I don't think it was really about the student showing off. The teacher was trying to prevent the student from becoming attached to the miraculous nature of what he/she was doing. It sounds like a wonderful experience that would make you feel incredibly special. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But the feelings of specialness that the student would inevitably attach to would be the exact thing he/she's learning to avoid. Those feelings would solidify his/her belief that he/she is a separate person in a separate world. Which is pretty much the illusion zen attempts to dispel. That was nicely put. I get it now. Although ~ the very fact (!) that he is a monk in training separates him from 'the crowd'. It's still bugging me. ;D
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Post by enigma on Aug 15, 2012 1:57:09 GMT -5
I don't think the story has anything to do with right or wrong, showing off, jealousy or owning. I don't know that it ever even happened. My impression (though I don't know much about Zen) is that such stories are intended to teach something rather than document or entertain. In this case, it would seem to be a warning about pursuing woo woo abilities at the expense of truth realization, which one assumes is the goal in Zen. BTW, the story wasn't about somebody swimming in shallow water. ;D I'm unaware if it's intended to document or entertain, either. I did not see it as a specific lesson type of story, per se, so I took it more or less at face value (assumed it was based on a true story). Since St. Francis and plenty of other folks have a special rapport with animals, I just thought it was over-reaction on the teacher's part. I realize I haven't been where you guys have, so I won't respond to things the same way. So, now I see what you're saying about it being a warning about woo woo abilities - but if Zen training (I picture Kung Fu) is about highly specialized training, whether it's martial arts/self-defense or what have you, it doesn't strike me as a very good lesson. Mainly because I don't know what having a special rapport w/animals has to do with any woo woo stuff. and this is the part about the shallow water: 'Many people, such as St. Francis of Assisi, have communed with animals. One famous Zen story concerned a monk who had a big kensho experience, and afterwards birds would fly down and sit on his shoulder and deer would follow him around. His teacher saw him one day with birds sitting on his shoulders, and he whacked him with his Zen stick and told him "to stop playing in the shallow water." ...You probly knew that. Oh, no, I thought you were referring to the 'walking on water' story. My bad. Birds sitting on his shoulder and deer following him around sounds pretty woo woo to me. Unless, of course, they're domesticated critters.
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Post by silver on Aug 15, 2012 2:52:56 GMT -5
You'd be surprised how many cranky domesticated critters will respond to those with 'whisperer' or 'special' abilities. It's certainly not special if one has a degree of that ability. Surely a zm doesn't expect each student to be like a cookie cutter of the next one. I guess the 'uniforms' would point in that direction, though...so, how much different is it from say a Catholic school or a military school? Sorry for that tangent, but it just comes into play, naturally...simply wondering out loud here.
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Post by question on Aug 15, 2012 3:29:43 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. Yes, we could say that the teacher was seeing a giraffe. The teacher seems to value ordinariness over specialness. If the teacher thinks that the student should be smacked then folowing the same logic the teacher should not be surprised if the student hits back.
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Post by topology on Aug 15, 2012 7:13:37 GMT -5
You know what I don’t like about the story about the zen master who struck the underling with his stick and told him to stop swimming in shallow water or whatever is that there is a time for a ‘teacher’ to back off. When the student was attracting these wild creatures to come onto him, there was nothing wrong with that. The teacher was overstepping his bounds and has no discernible reason to smack him or say anything. It’s not being a show-off – it’s simply what he does. There was no indication in the story that he was doing it to show off, anyway. I think the teacher was just jealous, is my take. We all have these spiritual ‘gifts’ or seeming abilities. It seems the situation is one where the teacher thinks he owns the student. Bad, imo. There is a lot of food for thought in your post, ZD and I really liked it. I don't think it was really about the student showing off. The teacher was trying to prevent the student from becoming attached to the miraculous nature of what he/she was doing. It sounds like a wonderful experience that would make you feel incredibly special. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But the feelings of specialness that the student would inevitably attach to would be the exact thing he/she's learning to avoid. Those feelings would solidify his/her belief that he/she is a separate person in a separate world. Which is pretty much the illusion zen attempts to dispel. How is it that the student was causing this? Why couldn't this communing with animals simply become normal or natural? It is only special against the backdrop of a society that doesn't commune with animals. Sounds to me like the Zen Master is slapping the hand of someone who isn't masking their existence in the pervading culture. There is nothing wrong with having woo-woo occur so long as the response is not "look at what I can do!"
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Post by zendancer on Aug 15, 2012 7:18:04 GMT -5
As E. implied, I suspect that many of the Zen stories are just stories designed to make a point. Although anything is possible, I seriously doubt that the Zen monk in one of the stories walked across a river on the surface of the water (unless he had a pair of those special water-repellent shoes--LOL). The story is just a graphic way of saying, "Don't get attached to psychic paranormal experiences that are likely to make one feel special."
"Shallow water" is a common Zen idiom that means "superficial" or "lightweight," as in the following comment by a ZM about a monk he had interviewed, "The water is much too shallow here to find an anchor."
On another topic, Zen people are not particularly interested in martial arts; some martial arts people get interested in Zen because of the mental focus, discipline, and body-knowledge that Zen fosters. There are one or two small Zen sects that combined martial arts and Zen training (Shaolin Monastery, etc), which often causes people to associate Zen with martial arts. The Zen approach to life infuses the Japanese culture, and people there have realized that any activity can be used as a way to transcend selfhood and attain an aesthetic ideal. There are flower-arranging masters, tea ceremony masters, archery masters, kendo masters, landscape masters, graphic art masters, etc. In all of these activities selfhood can get lost in the perfection and practice of the activities. In a sense, all of these activities, if pursued single-mindedly, can lead to "the zone" where time, space, and selfhood drop away. There are dozens of books about these subjects, but one of the best is "Zen and the art of Archery" by Herrigel. Herrigel was a German who studied archery with an archery master in Japan. The practice (which was highly meditative) was designed to lead to a state in which "It" released the arrow rather than the individual.
ZM's do not value ordinariness as much as they eschew specialness as a potential pitfall. A conversation between a student who has had a woo woo experience and a ZM might go something like this:
Student (excitedly): "I've been to the top of Mt. Woo Woo!" ZM: That's great, but have you finished doing the dishes yet?
IOW, sooner or later, even wonderful experiences will come to an end, and the tasks (and flow) of everyday life remains. If one gets psychologically stuck in the past, s/he will miss what is happening NOW.
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Post by Portto on Aug 15, 2012 7:41:26 GMT -5
Would you recommend hydrophilic sponges for shoes instead? ;D **Googling 'hydrophilic sponge'........** "Hydrophilic Foam Blah, blah, blah.... can retain up to 15 times its weight in liquids." Well, there's no advantage there either. Running on water would be more about hydroplaning and fluid dynamics than shoe buoyancy. Water doesn't flatten no matter how hard you hit it, it just moves out of the way, but it takes a while. You're right about the physics of water, but the chemistry (hydrophobicity) is also important. What if you get shoes as big as half a surfboard? That would help a tiny little bit. During your duck satsangs, I'm sure you noticed the ducks greasing their feathers. They are making them water-repellent ;D
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Post by enigma on Aug 15, 2012 9:51:06 GMT -5
You'd be surprised how many cranky domesticated critters will respond to those with 'whisperer' or 'special' abilities. It's certainly not special if one has a degree of that ability. Surely a zm doesn't expect each student to be like a cookie cutter of the next one. I guess the 'uniforms' would point in that direction, though...so, how much different is it from say a Catholic school or a military school? Sorry for that tangent, but it just comes into play, naturally...simply wondering out loud here. I don't have any reason to believe the Zen story refers to house pets, cranky or otherwise.
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