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Post by relinquish on Jan 17, 2012 2:47:23 GMT -5
In the un-fading light of curiosity, boredom will surely dissolve.
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Post by nobody on Jan 17, 2012 20:36:07 GMT -5
In the un-fading light of curiosity, boredom will surely dissolve. The observation is a watching, and a simple curiosity is the best. I probably shouldn't have used the word bored. I am very curious. I find everything fascinating. The senses, the mind, silence itself. I am curious what I will find if the mind is a bit more stable (because it does tend to wander), which is why I started with the concentration routine. And yes, I find curiosity to be the best tool. There are times when the curiosity isn't there, and in those times, I don't try to force anything because it's counter productive. I just sit without any intention, and watch whatever is arising. Sometimes just sitting there and letting the mind comes to rest results in a spontaneous curiosity. Important to know that a quiet relaxed mind is the most concentrated mind. In relaxation the mind just becomes more concentrated by virtue of being undistracted. That's been my experience as well. I find that by just sitting there, making no effort, the mind settles on its own. I have never tried concentration but I thought I'd give it a shot because I thought maybe some concentration would take me to deeper states of silence where I'd have some new stuff to explore (or the same stuff, just a more stable mind). But, I don't know. Maybe this concentration stuff will only make the mind more agitated. But when I say concentration, I don't mean like hardcore efforting. I mean a light/gentle concentration.. Continually bringing attention back to the breath. This has been a real challenge for me so far. Sometimes I get frustrated and I decide to just sit there instead (and, of course, the mind goes quiet). The wrong way to do meditation, is to do it with some gaining or achieving idea. So, maybe I am making a goal out of it simply because I want to explore with a more calm/stable mind. I don't know. I guess I didn't see that as a problem until it was mentioned here. I never used meditation as a means of feeling better or anything of the sort. There are times when I use meditation to explore, and the other times I do it for no reason and no matter my mental or emotional state. I make sure that I am consistent with it regardless.
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Post by acewall on Jan 17, 2012 23:06:58 GMT -5
If your meditation practice is correct then one will notice objectively that the thinking and thought-concepts in the mind gradually slows down as you relax.
In time, relaxation effects the mind in this way and it will slow down to No-Thought at all. Its not that your mind has died, as when your enviroment needs mind for what ever reason, the mind is instantly drawn back from no-where.
Walking around 'without thought' maybe is new to you, but given time you will get used to it, by not giving your mind attention and staying with your blissfullness.
It is the 'attention' we give mind that fuels mind to racing speeds.
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Post by lolly on Jan 18, 2012 7:26:18 GMT -5
I practiced the breath meditation, very traditional buddhist anapanasati, and at first noticed the mind just running wild, but I thought if I can't observe what I intend to, who is the master and who is the slave?
With a conviction that the mind should abide by my intention, I continually returned attention to the breath until I could retain the focus for a long period of time. I did get disappointed and frustrated at first, but soon recognized this was a habitual reactive behaviour which was detrimental to me in daily life.
By simply recognizing that, it disolved quickly, for why would I retain a detrimental behaviour I had become aware of? After that I merely noticed I was distracted, and consequentially noticed the breath was there.
As my mind settled on the breath, chitter chatter did become a 'radio in the backround', I just noticed it was there, but it didn't distract me anymore.
The mind started to sharpen, and I could feel the air moving very distinctly, which made it much easier as I couldn't not notice such an obvious breath.
I refined the thing for a few months until all I focused on was a tiny dot on the tip of my upper lip. I'd feel the air passing over it, and soon enough I could feel even the slightest movement of air there.
From there it became a huge space which only contained that little dot... so I could just be in space for a while and if I returned I'd feel that dot again...
That led on to weird sensations happening in the body, and could feel emotional baggage literally as physical blocks, like solid lumps in a lighter substance... and entered a purification process... and as the storms rose I now had the ability to retain focus on that breath, and had overcome my detrimental reactivity (as I earlier mentioned)...
Yea... The breath is the begining of the inquiry... and it leads to deeper places of inquiry.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2012 11:05:58 GMT -5
I practiced the breath meditation, very traditional buddhist anapanasati, and at first noticed the mind just running wild, but I thought if I can't observe what I intend to, who is the master and who is the slave? With a conviction that the mind should abide by my intention, I continually returned attention to the breath until I could retain the focus for a long period of time. I did get disappointed and frustrated at first, but soon recognized this was a habitual reactive behaviour which was detrimental to me in daily life. By simply recognizing that, it disolved quickly, for why would I retain a detrimental behaviour I had become aware of? After that I merely noticed I was distracted, and consequentially noticed the breath was there. As my mind settled on the breath, chitter chatter did become a 'radio in the backround', I just noticed it was there, but it didn't distract me anymore. The mind started to sharpen, and I could feel the air moving very distinctly, which made it much easier as I couldn't not notice such an obvious breath. I refined the thing for a few months until all I focused on was a tiny dot on the tip of my upper lip. I'd feel the air passing over it, and soon enough I could feel even the slightest movement of air there. From there it became a huge space which only contained that little dot... so I could just be in space for a while and if I returned I'd feel that dot again... That led on to weird sensations happening in the body, and could feel emotional baggage literally as physical blocks, like solid lumps in a lighter substance... and entered a purification process... and as the storms rose I now had the ability to retain focus on that breath, and had overcome my detrimental reactivity (as I earlier mentioned)... Yea... The breath is the begining of the inquiry... and it leads to deeper places of inquiry. Or we could equally say noticing is the beginning of the inquiry.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2012 14:09:19 GMT -5
I practiced the breath meditation, very traditional buddhist anapanasati... . Yea... The breath is the begining of the inquiry... and it leads to deeper places of inquiry. that's what i practiced too (until my paradigm shifted with the birth of kids). if I meditate at all I do anapanasati. never in the daily sittings, short and long retreats, readings or dharma talks did i discover inquiry in the way i know it now. that came from all this nondual world (Jed Mckenna, adyashanti, Rupert Spira, John Wheeler....this forum). I also did a bunch of vipassana (aka Insight meditation) but I never had insights that were earthshaking or memorable. this question 'who or what am i?' when contemplated in contrast to those gaps and that everpresent space/silence/stillness that can be witnessed in meditation could have been a big help. is the reason why that type of inquiry is not directly pointed to with respect to anapanasati/vipassana because they want it to grow organically from experience (or something)? or is it just an oversight? or am i just hopelesssly mistaken, in left field (eating clovers)?
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Post by nobody on Jan 18, 2012 16:26:55 GMT -5
this question 'who or what am i?' when contemplated in contrast to those gaps and that everpresent space/silence/stillness that can be witnessed in meditation could have been a big help. is the reason why that type of inquiry is not directly pointed to with respect to anapanasati/vipassana because they want it to grow organically from experience (or something)? or is it just an oversight? or am i just hopelesssly mistaken, in left field (eating clovers)? That's a good question. I don't know what the vipassana teachers are trying to get you to notice, but over time I think you tend to notice or become curious about stuff automagically. I'm very skeptical about just following the breath. I attend a Zen Center with about 120 people who just follow the breath, and they are all very good at it. Meanwhile they are all fast asleep and have no insight or wisdom. I can't help but be skeptical about this "following the breath" stuff. In all actuality, they are probably just all trying to attain some peace... Definitely not the truth. I started meditating on the breath, but I hated it. I remembered someone saying to me that it didn't matter what you did, so I just started sitting there not knowing why I was meditating. Just thought I'd put the time in, just in case. I later found out this "pointless" meditation was actually "taught"... Shikantaza means "just sit". After some time doing this type of meditation, I started noticing that the body was disappearing (or dropping off) and a vast spaciousness opened up. I became really curious about it so I started inquiring. I later found out that was vipassana. So there was a natural shift from doing nothing (shikantaza) to becoming curious, inquiring and getting insight (vippasana). I do think that in true shikantaza you aren't really supposed to do anything. But I'm not real fond of rules when it comes to this stuff because then you end up trying to do stuff the "right" way when you don't really know what "right" means. So, then you go running off into left field chasing some imaginary goal.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2012 18:47:28 GMT -5
this question 'who or what am i?' when contemplated in contrast to those gaps and that everpresent space/silence/stillness that can be witnessed in meditation could have been a big help. is the reason why that type of inquiry is not directly pointed to with respect to anapanasati/vipassana because they want it to grow organically from experience (or something)? or is it just an oversight? or am i just hopelesssly mistaken, in left field (eating clovers)? That's a good question. I don't know what the vipassana teachers are trying to get you to notice, but over time I think you tend to notice or become curious about stuff automagically. I'm very skeptical about just following the breath. I attend a Zen Center with about 120 people who just follow the breath, and they are all very good at it. Meanwhile they are all fast asleep and have no insight or wisdom. I can't help but be skeptical about this "following the breath" stuff. In all actuality, they are probably just all trying to attain some peace... Definitely not the truth. I started meditating on the breath, but I hated it. I remembered someone saying to me that it didn't matter what you did, so I just started sitting there not knowing why I was meditating. Just thought I'd put the time in, just in case. I later found out this "pointless" meditation was actually "taught"... Shikantaza means "just sit". After some time doing this type of meditation, I started noticing that the body was disappearing (or dropping off) and a vast spaciousness opened up. I became really curious about it so I started inquiring. I later found out that was vipassana. So there was a natural shift from doing nothing (shikantaza) to becoming curious, inquiring and getting insight (vippasana). I do think that in true shikantaza you aren't really supposed to do anything. But I'm not real fond of rules when it comes to this stuff because then you end up trying to do stuff the "right" way when you don't really know what "right" means. So, then you go running off into left field chasing some imaginary goal. I have my own version of the 'middle way'. It's clear to everybody that total involvement with the mind is not fruitful, but maybe it's not clear that the sort of practice that rejects all thought is also not fruitful, though it can lead to various mind states and experiences which I don't dismiss completely. The reason it's not fruitful is because the problem is not the lack of nothingness, which meditation somehow needs to supply, but rather the presence of somethingness, which in this case is conditioning, which acts like a veil whether thinking is happening or not. The reason this is so is because it's not just attention to conscious thought that obstructs. If that were so, everybody who's thoughts stopped for even a moment would come to absolute clarity of the obviousness of what was being obscured by thinking. Conscious thought can be seen as the end result of an extremely complex pre-thought process that not only determines what thoughts and feelings arise in conscious awareness, it also subsumes the willingness to see even in the absence of thought. IOW, if you don't want to see the elephant in the living room, you don't require a conscious thought that says 'I don't want to see the elephant'. You don't have to think at all in order to hide the elephant from conscious awareness, and so you can sit on your couch all day not thinking that thought, or any thought, and yet the elephant remains hidden. So, as distasteful as it seems to the seeker who has come to see mind as the problem, mind is very much involved in the solution and cannot be bypassed. This is why the process of gaining insight is effective, which is also distasteful to some seekers because it seems to imply that some knowledge is being gained, and the only thing worse for a nondual seeker than engaging mind is actually learning something. Hehe. However, the end result of this process of gaining insight can only be seen as a loss for mind, ultimately. So the 'middle way, then, is a contemplation, which acts as a focus for mind, followed by a relaxing of thought in which there is an automatic expansion of awareness as the constricted thinking focus is released. It is, in fact, precisely what the scientist does when he ponders a problem deeply, then takes a rest, and has a sudden 'AHA!' moment that presents him with the solution he had been looking for. Many creative peeps in various disciplines have mastered the 'AHA!' moment. Very few of them are interested in revealing the elephant in the living room, because they don't know there is one. You do.
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Post by nobodyishome on Jan 18, 2012 18:58:06 GMT -5
So there was a natural shift from doing nothing (shikantaza) to becoming curious, inquiring and getting insight (vippasana). At risk in saying this but from what I have read here so far being new to this forum. Most active posters here would go through literal hell if they had to do a real 7 day Vippasana retreat. A place where you don't talk not a word and be by yourself for 7 days sitting 8 hours a day. You would be amazed at what happens then. Most folks can't keep their mouth shut for a 15 mins let alone 168 hrs.
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Post by lolly on Jan 18, 2012 19:05:11 GMT -5
I agree, and would like to elaborate including the other posts contexts.
The moment of noticing this breath, just what it feels like, even the mention of it brings it imediatly to attention, and that immediate attention is where it's at. It's not an effort of concentration, it's like I mention breath, you notice it.
Insight isn't something spectacular, necessarily, I had insight the first time I observed breath... I realized my mind was a fleeting bag of distractions... so there's an insight... soon I realized my frustration disappointment, negative failure attitude were detrimental in my life... more insight... and so on.
Insight comes automatically when one drops the volition and enters the choiceless observation. Trying to find a woo woo which isn't there is impossible, and if one uses the volition he'll find what he imagines to be, but miss the truth.
Meditation, no volition... choiceless observation.
Intent upon the breath is not a volition. Just noticing does not change it... it's like watching a river flow by.
"Awareness is observation without choice, condemnation, or justification. Awareness is silent observation from which there arises understanding without the experiencer and the experienced. In this awareness, which is passive, the problem or the cause is given an opportunity to unfold itself and so give its full significance. In awareness there is no end in view to be gained, and there is no becoming, the 'me' and the 'mine' not being given the continuity. To understand what this self-centred activity is, one must obviously examine it, look at it, be aware of the entire process. If one can be aware of it, then there is the possibility of its dissolution; but to be aware of it requires a certain understanding, a certain intention to face the thing as it is and not to interpret, not to modify, not to condemn it."
Krishnamurti.
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Post by enigma on Jan 18, 2012 19:49:47 GMT -5
I agree, and would like to elaborate including the other posts contexts. The moment of noticing this breath, just what it feels like, even the mention of it brings it imediatly to attention, and that immediate attention is where it's at. It's not an effort of concentration, it's like I mention breath, you notice it. Insight isn't something spectacular, necessarily, I had insight the first time I observed breath... I realized my mind was a fleeting bag of distractions... so there's an insight... soon I realized my frustration disappointment, negative failure attitude were detrimental in my life... more insight... and so on. Insight comes automatically when one drops the volition and enters the choiceless observation. Trying to find a woo woo which isn't there is impossible, and if one uses the volition he'll find what he imagines to be, but miss the truth. Meditation, no volition... choiceless observation. Intent upon the breath is not a volition. Just noticing does not change it... it's like watching a river flow by. "Awareness is observation without choice, condemnation, or justification. Awareness is silent observation from which there arises understanding without the experiencer and the experienced. In this awareness, which is passive, the problem or the cause is given an opportunity to unfold itself and so give its full significance. In awareness there is no end in view to be gained, and there is no becoming, the 'me' and the 'mine' not being given the continuity. To understand what this self-centred activity is, one must obviously examine it, look at it, be aware of the entire process. If one can be aware of it, then there is the possibility of its dissolution; but to be aware of it requires a certain understanding, a certain intention to face the thing as it is and not to interpret, not to modify, not to condemn it." Krishnamurti. Good stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2012 9:24:51 GMT -5
I agree, and would like to elaborate including the other posts contexts. The moment of noticing this breath, just what it feels like, even the mention of it brings it imediatly to attention, and that immediate attention is where it's at. It's not an effort of concentration, it's like I mention breath, you notice it. Insight isn't something spectacular, necessarily, I had insight the first time I observed breath... I realized my mind was a fleeting bag of distractions... so there's an insight... soon I realized my frustration disappointment, negative failure attitude were detrimental in my life... more insight... and so on. Insight comes automatically when one drops the volition and enters the choiceless observation. Trying to find a woo woo which isn't there is impossible, and if one uses the volition he'll find what he imagines to be, but miss the truth. Meditation, no volition... choiceless observation. Intent upon the breath is not a volition. Just noticing does not change it... it's like watching a river flow by. "Awareness is observation without choice, condemnation, or justification. Awareness is silent observation from which there arises understanding without the experiencer and the experienced. In this awareness, which is passive, the problem or the cause is given an opportunity to unfold itself and so give its full significance. In awareness there is no end in view to be gained, and there is no becoming, the 'me' and the 'mine' not being given the continuity. To understand what this self-centred activity is, one must obviously examine it, look at it, be aware of the entire process. If one can be aware of it, then there is the possibility of its dissolution; but to be aware of it requires a certain understanding, a certain intention to face the thing as it is and not to interpret, not to modify, not to condemn it." Krishnamurti. this clarification of meditation as choiceless awareness is a good one. i'd think it would be good for the beginning meditator to really try and grok what that means before pouring blood sweat and tears out trying to tame the mind. i think what I noticed with respect to meditation went something like whoa, that's 'monkey mind' [tried really hard to bring attention to breath -- very frustrating -- did that for years] so 'gently return to the breath' means don't fight it [gently returned attention to breath--did that for years] notice that attention returns on its own, continually [this still amazes me and is where i'm at, even when not sitting] maybe i missed it on the first go around, but it seems like the choicelessness is really the stuff.
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Post by gypsywind on Jan 19, 2012 14:20:25 GMT -5
As I said a few days ago....'noticing' doesn't really go deep enough. Do you see what I'm saying zendancer? How 'bout you, enigma? It's actually kinda' superficial... reminds me of a zen story: Once upon a time in the garden of a buddhist monastry the following discussion happened... Monk #1: "Flag is flapping." Monk #2: "Wind is flapping" Enlightened Monk: "Minds are flapping" Master: "Mouths are flapping" Why is what OHC said ACTUALLY insane idiocy, and not just that in your opinion, Question? Even if 99 percent of humanity would unquestioningly agree with you, it's still just an idea based on the belief that suffering REALLY exists. As I said, it is only temporary. Eventually, there will no evidence remaining at all that it even occurred. It leaves no lasting mark on existence. Because none of that has anything to do with the starving n*gger child, nothing, not even remotely. No one is trying to minimize your precious pain in suffering, it is there, it's Okay, it's been acknowledged, now get over it. Firstly, just for the record, personally I try my best not to care, because if I really did, I fear it would finish me. It's simply too much. Secondly, thanks for being frank and letting the world see what a sick scumbag you are ("blah blah 'precious' pain... 'infinitesimal' blah blah ... blah 'get over it'). Yeah, let's talk about Question, again. Yes, a sick scumbag that cares deeply about the world, and has the courage to experience my sadness and grief about it, no matter how painful...heh You did nothing of the sort. You just played Hollywood with yourself and got a hard-on. But thanks for calling me a coward, brah, very perceptive of you. Peace Interesting thread. To sum up: Tat tells peeps what they ought to do. Peeps have their own ideas. Tat leaves in a huff. Angela scores big with "sword and soup." E. scores with "love appears in one's absence." Andrew expands language beyond all meaning, and FJ gets left without a teacher. (sigh) Interesting thread. To sum up: Tat tells peeps what they ought to do. Peeps have their own ideas. Tat leaves in a huff. Angela scores big with "sword and soup." E. scores with "love appears in one's absence." Andrew expands language beyond all meaning, and FJ gets left without a teacher. (sigh) I think that pretty much covers it. Hehe. I practiced the breath meditation, very traditional buddhist anapanasati, and at first noticed the mind just running wild, but I thought if I can't observe what I intend to, who is the master and who is the slave? With a conviction that the mind should abide by my intention, I continually returned attention to the breath until I could retain the focus for a long period of time. I did get disappointed and frustrated at first, but soon recognized this was a habitual reactive behaviour which was detrimental to me in daily life. By simply recognizing that, it disolved quickly, for why would I retain a detrimental behaviour I had become aware of? After that I merely noticed I was distracted, and consequentially noticed the breath was there. As my mind settled on the breath, chitter chatter did become a 'radio in the backround', I just noticed it was there, but it didn't distract me anymore. The mind started to sharpen, and I could feel the air moving very distinctly, which made it much easier as I couldn't not notice such an obvious breath. I refined the thing for a few months until all I focused on was a tiny dot on the tip of my upper lip. I'd feel the air passing over it, and soon enough I could feel even the slightest movement of air there. From there it became a huge space which only contained that little dot... so I could just be in space for a while and if I returned I'd feel that dot again... That led on to weird sensations happening in the body, and could feel emotional baggage literally as physical blocks, like solid lumps in a lighter substance... and entered a purification process... and as the storms rose I now had the ability to retain focus on that breath, and had overcome my detrimental reactivity (as I earlier mentioned)... Yea... The breath is the begining of the inquiry... and it leads to deeper places of inquiry. Or we could equally say noticing is the beginning of the inquiry. I agree, and would like to elaborate including the other posts contexts. The moment of noticing this breath, just what it feels like, even the mention of it brings it imediatly to attention, and that immediate attention is where it's at. It's not an effort of concentration, it's like I mention breath, you notice it. Insight isn't something spectacular, necessarily, I had insight the first time I observed breath... I realized my mind was a fleeting bag of distractions... so there's an insight... soon I realized my frustration disappointment, negative failure attitude were detrimental in my life... more insight... and so on. Insight comes automatically when one drops the volition and enters the choiceless observation. Trying to find a woo woo which isn't there is impossible, and if one uses the volition he'll find what he imagines to be, but miss the truth. Meditation, no volition... choiceless observation. Intent upon the breath is not a volition. Just noticing does not change it... it's like watching a river flow by. "Awareness is observation without choice, condemnation, or justification. Awareness is silent observation from which there arises understanding without the experiencer and the experienced. In this awareness, which is passive, the problem or the cause is given an opportunity to unfold itself and so give its full significance. In awareness there is no end in view to be gained, and there is no becoming, the 'me' and the 'mine' not being given the continuity. To understand what this self-centred activity is, one must obviously examine it, look at it, be aware of the entire process. If one can be aware of it, then there is the possibility of its dissolution; but to be aware of it requires a certain understanding, a certain intention to face the thing as it is and not to interpret, not to modify, not to condemn it." Krishnamurti. Good stuff. Yeah, I know it's more complicated than I implied in that, and I didn't mean to suggest that the 'graphic demonstration' was going to impress you particularly. You have an idea about a non-dual dualistic experiential reality that is better than this one rather than worse and is all good and no bad. I have no idea what makes you think that's possible beyond some channeled entities who have told you it is. That's a good summation, E. I, too, wonder where Andrew gets such an idea. No, wait......I think I know! LOL. Thank goodness I don't have to abide there anymore. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole! Buttheads... ;D
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Post by enigma on Jan 19, 2012 15:09:55 GMT -5
As I said a few days ago....'noticing' doesn't really go deep enough. Do you see what I'm saying zendancer? How 'bout you, enigma? It's actually kinda' superficial... Could it be that your noticing is what is superficial?
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Post by gypsywind on Jan 19, 2012 15:15:26 GMT -5
As I said a few days ago....'noticing' doesn't really go deep enough. Do you see what I'm saying zendancer? How 'bout you, enigma? It's actually kinda' superficial... Could it be that your noticing is what is superficial? I'm not interested in playing that game anymore, e. I'm just wondering where a so-called teacher get's the inspiration to use a derogatory term referring to black people. And now you're choosing to defend it? Get real.
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