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Post by commiejesus on Jan 20, 2009 10:28:48 GMT -5
...what I have the problem with in the new "pop-psychology-new-age" garbage is that Tolle and others have the "Diarrhea of the thought" and as the consequence they cannot accurately say what they think. Verbalizing some of these concepts is harder than anything and that is why we have esoteric poetry, fine art and music. Some of Tolle's readers say "deep stuff", and nod their heads in agreement yet what Tolle's writes is mostly circular logic garbage and they (Tolle included) have no clue what he is saying.... Gonna risk being condescending here, but Oprah is confused, and a lot of her fanbase is equally confused. For Oprah to endorse the free-will, materialistic garbage that is The Secret in one breath and tout Tolle's books in the next, she is genuinely either evolving or can't figure out what's what. LOL Oprah just likes to cover all the bases. She is also working with Marianne Williamson the course of miracles gal. But you need to give Tolle credit because he was the one that brought nonduality into the mainstream all the others just followed his lead. However following his lead also came a lot of garrabe as now you have nonduality being sold as a business on almost every website which to me is a shame. Some people that I really respect for there work like Aydashanti is also one of them. He has some great marketing people now he wants to charge $10 just to listen to one of his talks audio only! Hell makes me wanting to get on this band wagon too! I have never seen so many people willing to pay $$$ for nothing and are more than happy when they receive nothing and when you try to give them something then they feel screwed. Such are the days of neo-advaita Peace Randyji
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Post by The Uncreated on Jan 20, 2009 23:33:48 GMT -5
Tolle and others have the "Diarrhea of the thought" and as the consequence they cannot accurately say what they think. Ah, but see -- ultimately it isn't about what we think, because thought has about as much relevance to Reality as a picture of an apple does to the real thing. But I tell you the following: if Tolle has in fact awakened, all the diarrhea you speak of in Tolle and others is the direct and perfect utterance of the Void itself -- those words aren't attributed to a construct called "Tolle." And if this is the case, the words may not make logical sense to you, but resolve themselves in perfect clarity to those who See. Tolle, while I don't care for his style, delivers a purely advaitan teaching, albeit in a very pre-chewed manner -- this has nothing to do with the New Age. That sort of nonsense deals with topics built around false bases; The Secret is a perfect example of new age trash, built around the assumption that man has individual will, can and does act to bring to fruition his desires, all the while the system of The Secret fails to address the condundrum of precisely who or what acts. Kinda like the little quote "all things return to the One; to what does the One return." Sounds pretty circular to me as well, but you know what? That self-referential logic rides the fine line between mind and no-mind. It is the gate, crafted by the ancients for you to utilize in your effort to break free from subjective experience. So get used to it. Circular logic is the order of the day in nondual teachings, because like an Escher painting, logic that refers to itself is often logic that collapses -- this is the only way to end suffering. The core nondual teaching is to resolve the problem of the 'I' -- who or what am I? The ultimate conscious feedback loop, circular and completely destructive: to ego. The Uncreated
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 20, 2009 23:49:38 GMT -5
Tolle and others have the "Diarrhea of the thought" and as the consequence they cannot accurately say what they think. Ah, but see -- ultimately it isn't about what we think, because thought has about as much relevance to Reality as a picture of an apple does to the real thing. But I tell you the following: if Tolle has in fact awakened, all the diarrhea you speak of in Tolle and others is the direct and perfect utterance of the Void itself -- those words aren't attributed to a construct called "Tolle." And if this is the case, the words may not make logical sense to you, but resolve themselves in perfect clarity to those who See. Tolle, while I don't care for his style, delivers a purely advaitan teaching, albeit in a very pre-chewed manner -- this has nothing to do with the New Age. That sort of nonsense deals with topics built around false bases; The Secret is a perfect example of new age trash, built around the assumption that man has individual will, can and does act to bring to fruition his desires, all the while the system of The Secret fails to address the condundrum of precisely who or what acts. Kinda like the little quote "all things return to the One; to what does the One return." Sounds pretty circular to me as well, but you know what? That self-referential logic rides the fine line between mind and no-mind. It is the gate, crafted by the ancients for you to utilize in your effort to break free from subjective experience. So get used to it. Circular logic is the order of the day in nondual teachings, because like an Escher painting, logic that refers to itself is often logic that collapses -- this is the only way to end suffering. The core nondual teaching is to resolve the problem of the 'I' -- who or what am I? The ultimate conscious feedback loop, circular and completely destructive: to ego. The Uncreated Agreed concerning Tolle he should not be compared to the folks who wrote the Secret. One has to do with real truth and the other about manifesting a parking place for your car! Not only the Who am I but who am I before the I. You have that and you have everything and in truth you already have it! All that is ever needed is for the so called seperate you to wake up. It is so simple and pure is it not what is not to love. Cheers Randji
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fear
Full Member
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Post by fear on Jan 21, 2009 2:21:28 GMT -5
Randyji, I know that it may sound like a business, but Osho had 99 Rolls Royces, but said that he was not attached to them at all. Maybe allowing whatever arises to arise means mucho deniro coming your way from followers who feel you should have it. If someone gave bought you dinner as a token of their appreciation would you see that as being different than receiving a million dollars. Gangaji could be a scam artist, prostitute, liar, cheat or whatever. It doesn't change what radiates from her being. The vitality and creativity of her talks resonate with me on a deep level and so what does it matter who she is or what she does. Who am I to judge. The same goes for Adyashanti. I don't care who is delivering the message. I've heard about 40 Adyashanti free audio clips from this link: www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=listenonlineGangaji's free audio clips can be heard here: www.gangaji.org/satsang/library/listening.asp
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 10:14:13 GMT -5
Randyji, I know that it may sound like a business, but Osho had 99 Rolls Royces, but said that he was not attached to them at all. Maybe allowing whatever arises to arise means mucho deniro coming your way from followers who feel you should have it. If someone gave bought you dinner as a token of their appreciation would you see that as being different than receiving a million dollars. Gangaji could be a scam artist, prostitute, liar, cheat or whatever. It doesn't change what radiates from her being. The vitality and creativity of her talks resonate with me on a deep level and so what does it matter who she is or what she does. Who am I to judge. The same goes for Adyashanti. I don't care who is delivering the message. I've heard about 40 Adyashanti free audio clips from this link: www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=listenonlineGangaji's free audio clips can be heard here: www.gangaji.org/satsang/library/listening.aspHi Fear, Those are only clips like teasers. Many times it is far more enjoyable and helpful to listen to whole talks from the start to the end. It is nice though that they have them up even as clips thanks for sharing that. But and I say this with love as far as really telling it like it is I would not put any of these Advaita teachers like Adya or Gangaji in the same league as Tony Parsons and a few others that do not charge or have such a large following. Folks like Adya, Gangaji are very mainstream Advaita and they serve a need for sure but they are also very good business people and a lot of their energy is into making $$$ as much. You should care who delvivers the message becaause some are far better at it and more awaken than others. When Adya had his first awakening experience and then starting teaching he did not know if what he had was real or not and very much doubted he was awaken so he goes over to Gangaji to ask her if he was truly awaken hin hint no one that is ever awakens needs to go to anyone to comfirm this nor should they. So for me and I have been around this Advaita circus for almost 10 years what I am saying is be very careful listen take in what you can but just be careful when it comes to people anyone that charges lots of $$$ for sharing. On seperate not thanks again for sharing those links. It would be nice if who ever is the webmaster here would create a page for links. Peace Randji
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Post by The Uncreated on Jan 21, 2009 10:32:41 GMT -5
On the topic of profiteering, I quite like UG Krishnamurti's take on the matter. He would say something to the effect of "what I say has no copyright. Print it, sell it or claim it as your own -- I don't care." It wasn't really an endorsement on his part about making money from his teachings, just his own attitudes toward safeguarding his own potential profits. Since he had no safegaurds, he was as anti-money as they came. I guess he instinctively knew that he could do little to prevent others from making a dollar off him, so he gave them free license. He didn't dare anyone to do it, so I guess few gave in, which is why I don't personally know of any commercially published material on U.G. Haven't seen any books of his at the local superstore anyway.
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 21, 2009 10:37:47 GMT -5
Hey Randiji
Folks like Adya, Gangaji are very mainstream Advaita and they serve a need for sure but they are also very good business people and a lot of their energy is into making $$$ as much. You should care who delivers the message becaause some are far better at it and more awaken than others.
Why is this a concern for you?
When Adya had his first awakening experience and then starting teaching he did not know if what he had was real or not and very much doubted he was awaken so he goes over to Gangaji to ask her if he was truly awaken hin hint no one that is ever awakens needs to go to anyone to comfirm this nor should they.
That sounds like an assumption. Who told you that? Awakening is so simple, so natural, that's it's easy to doubt and question. Those are the primary and common characteristics in the initial stage of waking up. That's why it's so helpful to have teachers who can say "this is IT."
On seperate not thanks again for sharing those links. It would be nice if who ever is the webmaster here would create a page for links.
Check the "spiritual teachers" section. That is the main links section to teachers
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 11:18:20 GMT -5
Hey Randiji Folks like Adya, Gangaji are very mainstream Advaita and they serve a need for sure but they are also very good business people and a lot of their energy is into making $$$ as much. You should care who delivers the message becaause some are far better at it and more awaken than others.Why is this a concern for you? When Adya had his first awakening experience and then starting teaching he did not know if what he had was real or not and very much doubted he was awaken so he goes over to Gangaji to ask her if he was truly awaken hin hint no one that is ever awakens needs to go to anyone to comfirm this nor should they. That sounds like an assumption. Who told you that? Awakening is so simple, so natural, that's it's easy to doubt and question. Those are the primary and common characteristics in the initial stage of waking up. That's why it's so helpful to have teachers who can say "this is IT." On seperate not thanks again for sharing those links. It would be nice if who ever is the webmaster here would create a page for links.Check the "spiritual teachers" section. That is the main links section to teachers ******************** Ok let me try again I posted some answers for you LM but the format came out bad.. First I am sharing info to help and yes who delivers a message should be a concern for everyone you have real Advaita teachers out there and you have many fake con people out there that are there just to take your $$$ for some words that they know you want to hear so yes it is a concern it should also be your concern and everyone to let people be aware of this. It is like if I know a car mechanic that is ripping people off is it a concern of mine will I tell my friends to stay away you bet. So we should always be concerned who delivers the message . The second part LM which I am a bit surpised by your comment is this. Ok first a little more about my history I have been around tecahers of Advaita for 10 years or so, I have know quite a few intimatley like brothers or sisters. Having been through this as I have I can say with no hesitation that if you need or feel the need to go to another person and ask for a comfirmation from them if you are really awaken then I would very much doubt that this person is awaknen.! It is that simple. I am sorry but that is the way it is and the reason is simple also ..do you need someone to tell you when your in your own home that your home? Yes awakening is simple and natural that is why when it happens in that instant you know it. Now what happens in the case where you do not know well then you go and ask another person and what happens the person says Oh yes your awake so your resting your awakening on another person words..come on LM that is nonsense and if you or anyone tells me that I had a awakening experience and I know it is real because my teacher told me it was real then I say to you that what you had was not a awakening experience at all you just had a experience of the mind. Read this quote by Charles Hayes Seeking "Wholeness, Completion, Happiness, Love or "Liberation" from “Another”, whether that "revered other" be a "Guru, Guide, Lover, or Friend", is a perfect way to avoid Paradise Paradise is THIS. Just as it Is and just as it Isn’t. All seeking "out there" is a dream of a “me”, foolishly knocking on the door to Paradise, from inside Paradise Paradise is only lost in seeking it. This Loving Oneness Cannot Be Known. To “know” Oneness there would have to be a sense of separation FROM Oneness. Who cannot see the fault in that logic? Now LM look into what you said about asking another teacher for comfirmation, do you not see that by doing this you are buy into that the author of this quote is saying..your are seeking comfirmation from another, can you see this? This is so simple to see if you need to ask outside yourself for comfirmation then what you have is the mind asking the mind for comfirmation on something that has no mind that is outside of the mind. Well nuff said I hope at least I made myself clear except.. LM a teacher can only give pointers that is the best they can ever do, depending on a teacher to tell you something more is a big error on the student part and the teachers part if the teachers does tell you anything except to point. Peace Randy
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 11:28:15 GMT -5
Check the "spiritual teachers" section. That is the main links section to teachers [/quote]
LM where is the link page? I am asking about a seperate page just for links. I think it will be helpful to have just a page for links instead of just inserting helpful links in a message that some willsee and others not. thanks Randji
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 21, 2009 12:58:45 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you're saying. That's not a bad idea...you could ask the moderator (Shawn)... Check the "spiritual teachers" section. That is the main links section to teachers LM where is the link page? I am asking about a seperate page just for links. I think it will be helpful to have just a page for links instead of just inserting helpful links in a message that some willsee and others not. thanks Randji[/quote]
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 13:11:50 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you're saying. That's not a bad idea...you could ask the moderator (Shawn)... Thank you I mean maybe it could be a link page at first where anyone could place a link and see how it goes if it gets out of hand then maybe the links would have to go through a moderator first but at least this way we could have a open resource for everyone. Peace Randyji
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Post by lightmystic on Jan 21, 2009 13:15:54 GMT -5
Hi Randiji First I am sharing info to help and yes who delivers a message should be a concern for everyone you have real Advaita teachers out there and you have many fake con people out there that are there just to take your $$$ for some words that they know you want to hear so yes it is a concern it should also be your concern and everyone to let people be aware of this. It is like if I know a car mechanic that is ripping people off is it a concern of mine will I tell my friends to stay away you bet. So we should always be concerned who delivers the message.Unlike a car mechanic, everything that a teacher says should be verified, even if just at a quiet level, in one's own experience. If it doesn't ring true, it should be questioned and possibly discarded. That doesn't mean one can't be open to learning more, but rather that one can realize that he/she is not "flying blind" and so does not need a teacher's help. All a teacher does is confirm that the student is on the right track and help direct their attention to certain parts of their Awareness... Having been through this as I have I can say with no hesitation that if you need or feel the need to go to another person and ask for a comfirmation from them if you are really awaken then I would very much doubt that this person is awaknen.! It is that simple. I am sorry but that is the way it is and the reason is simple also ..do you need someone to tell you when your in your own home that your home? Yes, you can, if you are not familiar with being in your own home. The Awareness has been there all along, so it's not something new that comes in. Thus, it's easy to overlook it. It's easy to doubt that its really that simple, that that really IS it. In fact, perhaps the most common advice that I've given to people who are about to Awaken (as opposed to Enlightenment) is that there can be doubt, but that doesn't negate one's experience. There's nothing wrong with doubt. The doubt is there and the experience is also there. The doubt is a relative habit, and the understanding is simply accepting what has always been there. Think about it, if you are used to doubting your experience all the time, and you believe that the only way that Awakening can occur is when all doubt is removed, then you're constantly looking for the doubt to be gone. "Is it gone yet? I'm not sure..." You see? One ends up doubting whether not they have stopped doubting. It's a vicious cycle. It's like saying that Enlightenment only happens when fear is over. "well, I want accept my Enlightenment, but I'm afraid the fear isn't really gone..." Same principle. Yes awakening is simple and natural that is why when it happens in that instant you know it.When my Awakening took place at first, it was so simple that, the next day, I wasn't sure that it had really occurred. A couple weeks later my Awake experience was crystal clear, and I followed it back to that time that I wasn't sure. There was doubt AND there was the experience. Eventually the doubt went, but that was a couple weeks after the Awakening actually took place. Now what happens in the case where you do not know well then you go and ask another person and what happens the person says Oh yes your awake so your resting your awakening on another person words..come on LM that is nonsense and if you or anyone tells me that I had a awakening experience and I know it is real because my teacher told me it was real then I say to you that what you had was not a awakening experience at all you just had a experience of the mind.Of course I agree with that, I'm talking about something different here. I'm talking about the experience which, from what I've seen of it, is much more common (granted my personal experience doesn't necessarily yield the most statistically proportionate sample of those about to Wake Up . This is where people are having the experience of that, but haven't accepted their relationship to that. They experience Awareness all the time, but are still identifying with their small, limited selves. Thus, all they need is a shift in perspective that they ARE That. And they need to accept that nothing can change or threaten that. Once the experience is ingrained, then it's simple. There's nothing to doubt. But that initial space of Awakening can be difficult to accept, even if it is essentially already one's experience. Now LM look into what you said about asking another teacher for comfirmation, do you not see that by doing this you are buy into that the author of this quote is saying..your are seeking comfirmation from another, can you see this?Awakening is not the full understanding of lack of separation. That comes later in it's own time. Still, while the experience can never be said not to be there if it really is, it's not always clear whether it's the same experience that everyone keeps talking about. A lot of the time it fits the description, but so do many other states that are not lasting or are not fundamentally complete. Thus, there is a natural curiosity of "is this really it? Is this experience really what everyone is talking about?" Is it true that you've never had that question yourself? This is so simple to see if you need to ask outside yourself for comfirmation then what you have is the mind asking the mind for comfirmation on something that has no mind that is outside of the mind. Well nuff said I hope at least I made myself clear except..Yes, it's the mind that receives validation. Whatever provides that validation will allow it to relax into the experience. If the mind can do that without any sort of validation from anything then that's great too, but I've never personally seen it... More often, the mind is what gets in the way. Someone would have it if they just didn't put so much stock in their mind saying they didn't... LM a teacher can only give pointers that is the best they can ever do, depending on a teacher to tell you something more is a big error on the student part and the teachers part if the teachers does tell you anything except to point.
Right, it goes something like this: Teacher: It's over there in yourself... Student: You mean right here? Teacher: Yes. Student: Really? that's the experience? That it? Teacher: Yes. Student: Well, this is different from what I thought it was going to be [insert false assumptions here...]. Are you sure this is it? Teacher: Yes. That's it. Student: Oh.... [releases and lets the experience overtake him] aaand Scene.... Thank you, thank you. It was some of my finest work *bow* *bow* ;D Do you see what I'm saying?
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 13:42:38 GMT -5
Hi Randiji First I am sharing info to help and yes who delivers a message should be a concern for everyone you have real Advaita teachers out there and you have many fake con people out there that are there just to take your $$$ for some words that they know you want to hear so yes it is a concern it should also be your concern and everyone to let people be aware of this. It is like if I know a car mechanic that is ripping people off is it a concern of mine will I tell my friends to stay away you bet. So we should always be concerned who delivers the message.Unlike a car mechanic, everything that a teacher says should be verified, even if just at a quiet level, in one's own experience. If it doesn't ring true, it should be questioned and possibly discarded. That doesn't mean one can't be open to learning more, but rather that one can realize that he/she is not "flying blind" and so does not need a teacher's help. All a teacher does is confirm that the student is on the right track and help direct their attention to certain parts of their Awareness... Having been through this as I have I can say with no hesitation that if you need or feel the need to go to another person and ask for a comfirmation from them if you are really awaken then I would very much doubt that this person is awaknen.! It is that simple. I am sorry but that is the way it is and the reason is simple also ..do you need someone to tell you when your in your own home that your home? Yes, you can, if you are not familiar with being in your own home. The Awareness has been there all along, so it's not something new that comes in. Thus, it's easy to overlook it. It's easy to doubt that its really that simple, that that really IS it. In fact, perhaps the most common advice that I've given to people who are about to Awaken (as opposed to Enlightenment) is that there can be doubt, but that doesn't negate one's experience. There's nothing wrong with doubt. The doubt is there and the experience is also there. The doubt is a relative habit, and the understanding is simply accepting what has always been there. Think about it, if you are used to doubting your experience all the time, and you believe that the only way that Awakening can occur is when all doubt is removed, then you're constantly looking for the doubt to be gone. "Is it gone yet? I'm not sure..." You see? One ends up doubting whether not they have stopped doubting. It's a vicious cycle. It's like saying that Enlightenment only happens when fear is over. "well, I want accept my Enlightenment, but I'm afraid the fear isn't really gone..." Same principle. Yes awakening is simple and natural that is why when it happens in that instant you know it.When my Awakening took place at first, it was so simple that, the next day, I wasn't sure that it had really occurred. A couple weeks later my Awake experience was crystal clear, and I followed it back to that time that I wasn't sure. There was doubt AND there was the experience. Eventually the doubt went, but that was a couple weeks after the Awakening actually took place. Now what happens in the case where you do not know well then you go and ask another person and what happens the person says Oh yes your awake so your resting your awakening on another person words..come on LM that is nonsense and if you or anyone tells me that I had a awakening experience and I know it is real because my teacher told me it was real then I say to you that what you had was not a awakening experience at all you just had a experience of the mind.Of course I agree with that, I'm talking about something different here. I'm talking about the experience which, from what I've seen of it, is much more common (granted my personal experience doesn't necessarily yield the most statistically proportionate sample of those about to Wake Up . This is where people are having the experience of that, but haven't accepted their relationship to that. They experience Awareness all the time, but are still identifying with their small, limited selves. Thus, all they need is a shift in perspective that they ARE That. And they need to accept that nothing can change or threaten that. Once the experience is ingrained, then it's simple. There's nothing to doubt. But that initial space of Awakening can be difficult to accept, even if it is essentially already one's experience. Now LM look into what you said about asking another teacher for comfirmation, do you not see that by doing this you are buy into that the author of this quote is saying..your are seeking comfirmation from another, can you see this?Awakening is not the full understanding of lack of separation. That comes later in it's own time. Still, while the experience can never be said not to be there if it really is, it's not always clear whether it's the same experience that everyone keeps talking about. A lot of the time it fits the description, but so do many other states that are not lasting or are not fundamentally complete. Thus, there is a natural curiosity of "is this really it? Is this experience really what everyone is talking about?" Is it true that you've never had that question yourself? This is so simple to see if you need to ask outside yourself for comfirmation then what you have is the mind asking the mind for comfirmation on something that has no mind that is outside of the mind. Well nuff said I hope at least I made myself clear except..Yes, it's the mind that receives validation. Whatever provides that validation will allow it to relax into the experience. If the mind can do that without any sort of validation from anything then that's great too, but I've never personally seen it... More often, the mind is what gets in the way. Someone would have it if they just didn't put so much stock in their mind saying they didn't... LM a teacher can only give pointers that is the best they can ever do, depending on a teacher to tell you something more is a big error on the student part and the teachers part if the teachers does tell you anything except to point.
Right, it goes something like this: Teacher: It's over there in yourself... Student: You mean right here? Teacher: Yes. Student: Really? that's the experience? That it? Teacher: Yes. Student: Well, this is different from what I thought it was going to be [insert false assumptions here...]. Are you sure this is it? Teacher: Yes. That's it. Student: Oh.... [releases and lets the experience overtake him] aaand Scene.... Thank you, thank you. It was some of my finest work *bow* *bow* ;D Do you see what I'm saying? First on the teachers part yes that is how it can go and certainly I agree but again just as pointers. Also one should never beleive what a teacher tells you as truth because it is not. It is just what it is. As far as my own awakening I never once doubted it nor seek to question it. Yes of course I do have questions we all do but never on my own awakening. I mean how on earth can you question your own awakening for me it would be impossible. When you see who you really are it is not of the mind that you see with. The mind cannot see anything all the mind can do is to dream in the past. When the mind trys to be in the present moment it finds out it can never ever be in the present because in the present is no'mind so what happens is the mind makes up stories of what it thinks it is all about. This is why I say if you question your awakening I doubt that it was a real awakening more than not it was the mind trying to come up with a story of what awakening is and then to claim it as its own. You follow me..This is why so many people are running around thinking they are awake but when you look a little deeper you see that it is all made up concepts that they are beleiving in and it is all mind. As far as being home I do not buy your story of not knowing your home to begin with. Everyone knows their home so when your in your home you know it. Now what you would question would be a home but not yours that was made up from memory by the mind. You would see somethings as being very similar but something would just be off a bit and that would give rise to the question . this is what the mind does but the mind will and can only fail at every attempt simply for the reason that the mind cannot know anything nondual. the mind byitself only divides and makes the opposites and divides them into many. the mind cannot know Oneness so it makes up stories the best it can about Oneness. that is all that is really happening LM stories being made up by the mind. the real thing which can never be known by the mind can never be made up can it. You see what I mean.. Ok need to go Cheers Randy
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Post by The Uncreated on Jan 21, 2009 14:13:43 GMT -5
I can say with no hesitation that if you need or feel the need to go to another person and ask for a comfirmation from them if you are really awaken then I would very much doubt that this person is awaknen.! It is that simple. I completely agree with you. To realise the noumenon -- the thing in itself, is to become it. The noumenon is a self-verifying fact so there should direct and unfiltered verification that goes along with the becoming/realization. The seeker's merging with all that is, is itself the fact -- is itself enlightenment. Reminds me of an article circulating the 'net a few years ago (Stephen Norquist: What Enlightenment is Really Like) where he asks meditators what they're doing and they couldn't answer to his satisfaction before he goes on to say the very action of meditation is itself enlightenment -- perhaps a statement indicating that the emergence of phenomena is the clearest testimony of the Void enaged in creative action, and to simply understand that deeply is to know what it means to have realized. Having said that, the ego will still attempt to reconcile the foreign experience in terms that it could understand, and there have been clear examples of that put before us (Susanne Segal in Collision with the Infinite, and U.G. Krishnamurti's own painful enlightenment). Even a partial unwillingness to accept the realization probably causes people, for their ego's satisfaction, to seek verification elsewhere, but as long as people don't fully surrender to it, the reconciling continues. -
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Post by dwbh1953 on Jan 21, 2009 14:28:16 GMT -5
[quote author=The Uncreated board=misc thread=109 post=1053
I completely agree with you. To realise the noumenon -- the thing in itself, is to become it. The noumenon is a self-verifying fact so there should direct and unfiltered verification that goes along with the becoming/realization.
- perhaps a statement indicating that the emergence of phenomena is the clearest testimony of the Void enaged in creative action, and to simply understand that deeply is to know what it means to have realized.
[/quote]
Exactly very well said..I really like the comment of ..the Void enaged in creative action, that speaks volumes for those that have a ear to hear.
Thanks Randyji
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