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Post by lolly on Dec 15, 2017 23:50:01 GMT -5
talkin to and seein "god"....how do we know that some this stuff is not mental illness?...illusion,delusion. Yes, first-hand experience is highly preferable. It seems significant that Buddhists tend to have visions of Buddhist images, Christians tend to have visions of Christian images, etc. The truth is beyond all images or ideas. Yes, though Gotama didn't teach imagery, his form has become iconography. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 16, 2017 0:48:37 GMT -5
Although, if you're interested, I could share some of the typical objections and challenges to the ideas you expressed that have driven the past dialog here on the forum. Yes, could you share that via private message? Sure. What is your distinction? There is no such thing as an enlightened seeker, but some people are awake to the fact of their seeking. people who speak on the topic and make videos like yours are engaged in the business of relative expression. . , most definitely. What I was referring to specifically was relative expression that points beyond relative expression and how that relates to your description of enlightenment. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 16, 2017 10:42:34 GMT -5
Yes, as we all know, individual humans are incredibly unique, and they have vastly different experiences and types of realizations. I've only watched batgap.com a few times, but Carol watches it a lot, and the range of what people describe there about their experiences and realizations is truly mind boggling. Here is just a partial list of what people commonly report:
1. Cosmic-consciousness experiences (called "kensho experiences" in Zen), which can range from short and shallow to extremely deep and long lasting
2. Nirvikalpa samadhi, a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness
3. Falling into "the zone," which is a deep state of flow during which time, space, and selfhood disappear although perception of the "outside world" remains
4. Realizations both major and minor which expose various beliefs as erroneous or misconceived
5. Christ-consciousness states of being which can last from a few days to many years
6. Self-realization (called "satori" in Zen), which is a sudden event that involves seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood
7. Kundalini phenomena
and so forth. Many seekers go through a long series of experiences and realizations that ultimately result in freedom and understanding, but a few non-seekers suddenly have the universe turned upside down and inside out in one split second. Ramana, for example, was a 16-year-old sports-loving teenager who had one single thought that led him into ten years of silent absorption in the Infinite. Some people who encounter the Infinite lose all interest in material possessions, but others don't. Some people who encounter the Infinite want to teach other people how to find it, but others are content to remain silent about it. How THIS will unfold in each human being is quite mysterious. What will happen next? Papaji's advice was "Wait and see." LOL
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2017 8:39:04 GMT -5
Yes, as we all know, individual humans are incredibly unique, and they have vastly different experiences and types of realizations. I've only watched batgap.com a few times, but Carol watches it a lot, and the range of what people describe there about their experiences and realizations is truly mind boggling. Here is just a partial list of what people commonly report: 1. Cosmic-consciousness experiences (called "kensho experiences" in Zen), which can range from short and shallow to extremely deep and long lasting 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi, a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness 3. Falling into "the zone," which is a deep state of flow during which time, space, and selfhood disappear although perception of the "outside world" remains 4. Realizations both major and minor which expose various beliefs as erroneous or misconceived 5. Christ-consciousness states of being which can last from a few days to many years 6. Self-realization (called "satori" in Zen), which is a sudden event that involves seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood 7. Kundalini phenomena and so forth. Many seekers go through a long series of experiences and realizations that ultimately result in freedom and understanding, but a few non-seekers suddenly have the universe turned upside down and inside out in one split second. Ramana, for example, was a 16-year-old sports-loving teenager who had one single thought that led him into ten years of silent absorption in the Infinite. Some people who encounter the Infinite lose all interest in material possessions, but others don't. Some people who encounter the Infinite want to teach other people how to find it, but others are content to remain silent about it. How THIS will unfold in each human being is quite mysterious. What will happen next? Papaji's advice was "Wait and see." LOL Yesterday, after I mentioned this thread to Carol, and we were talking about the many ways oceanic consciousness, boundarylessness, or the realization of non-separation occurs in peoples' lives, she suggested that I watch an interview on batgap with Paul Morgan-Somers, an Englishman. Paul was another fellow who, at the age of about 15 or 16 was playing soccer in his backyard when he was drawn to stop kicking the soccerball and sit down on the steps of his parent's house. As soon as he sat down, he entered what he called "the luminous ocean of being," and it never went away. He lost all interest in his prior ambition to become a professional soccer player, and after reading some words in the Upanishads (which gave him some vague understanding of what had happened to him), he, like Ramana, left a note for his parents, and went to spend 5 years in a Vedanta monastery. Afterwards, he lived for a while as a hermit, and, while meditating one day, the name of a woman who he had never met arose in his mind, and he knew that he would marry her. He subsequently met the woman, got married, had two children, and now operates a small business--a gallery--that supports his family. From the batgap video it seems obvious that Paul is a very happy camper, and still doesn't know how to talk about "the ocean" in which he lives. What we call "reality" is much stranger and more mysterious than anything we might imagine.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 17, 2017 11:56:37 GMT -5
Yes, as we all know, individual humans are incredibly unique, and they have vastly different experiences and types of realizations. I've only watched batgap.com a few times, but Carol watches it a lot, and the range of what people describe there about their experiences and realizations is truly mind boggling. Here is just a partial list of what people commonly report: 1. Cosmic-consciousness experiences (called "kensho experiences" in Zen), which can range from short and shallow to extremely deep and long lasting 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi, a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness 3. Falling into "the zone," which is a deep state of flow during which time, space, and selfhood disappear although perception of the "outside world" remains 4. Realizations both major and minor which expose various beliefs as erroneous or misconceived 5. Christ-consciousness states of being which can last from a few days to many years 6. Self-realization (called "satori" in Zen), which is a sudden event that involves seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood 7. Kundalini phenomena and so forth. Many seekers go through a long series of experiences and realizations that ultimately result in freedom and understanding, but a few non-seekers suddenly have the universe turned upside down and inside out in one split second. Ramana, for example, was a 16-year-old sports-loving teenager who had one single thought that led him into ten years of silent absorption in the Infinite. Some people who encounter the Infinite lose all interest in material possessions, but others don't. Some people who encounter the Infinite want to teach other people how to find it, but others are content to remain silent about it. How THIS will unfold in each human being is quite mysterious. What will happen next? Papaji's advice was "Wait and see." LOL Relating this back to Eric's video, the limited Zen material I've read equates satori with the end of suffering. Is that the way you interpret the Zen sources, and what is your opinion on the question? |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2017 13:43:11 GMT -5
Yes, as we all know, individual humans are incredibly unique, and they have vastly different experiences and types of realizations. I've only watched batgap.com a few times, but Carol watches it a lot, and the range of what people describe there about their experiences and realizations is truly mind boggling. Here is just a partial list of what people commonly report: 1. Cosmic-consciousness experiences (called "kensho experiences" in Zen), which can range from short and shallow to extremely deep and long lasting 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi, a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness 3. Falling into "the zone," which is a deep state of flow during which time, space, and selfhood disappear although perception of the "outside world" remains 4. Realizations both major and minor which expose various beliefs as erroneous or misconceived 5. Christ-consciousness states of being which can last from a few days to many years 6. Self-realization (called "satori" in Zen), which is a sudden event that involves seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood 7. Kundalini phenomena and so forth. Many seekers go through a long series of experiences and realizations that ultimately result in freedom and understanding, but a few non-seekers suddenly have the universe turned upside down and inside out in one split second. Ramana, for example, was a 16-year-old sports-loving teenager who had one single thought that led him into ten years of silent absorption in the Infinite. Some people who encounter the Infinite lose all interest in material possessions, but others don't. Some people who encounter the Infinite want to teach other people how to find it, but others are content to remain silent about it. How THIS will unfold in each human being is quite mysterious. What will happen next? Papaji's advice was "Wait and see." LOL Relating this back to Eric's video, the limited Zen material I've read equates satori with the end of suffering. Is that the way you interpret the Zen sources, and what is your opinion on the question? Yes, for most people, satori, which I interpret as SR, ends suffering, but the issue seems to be a bit more complex than Eric's video implies. Life and thinking continues after SR, and a sense of selfhood --in some degree or another--usually returns. This subsequent sense of selfhood is different than before because it's accepted as a natural aspect of "what is," and it comes without the strong sense of identification and volition that preceded SR. One of the reasons that Zen points to attaining a state of "no-mind" (mushin) and the value of continuing meditation and silent awareness following SR is that the path they describe doesn't stop with SR. The highest state in Zen is called "Holy Buddhahood" and that state appears to be equivalent to what some of us would call "Christ-consciousness." This is why I would only apply the term "enlightenment" to people who have become so one-with Source that they are only interested in the well-being of others and have no interest in their own. I suspect that many people have experienced a Christ-consciousness state of mind for limited periods of time, but the continuation of that state is apparently extremely rare, and I would happily confer the term "enlightened" upon anyone who exhibited that state for however long they exhibited it. I suspect that for that state to continue indefinitely, it would need to be accompanied by a state of no-mind. This is pure speculation on my part because I only know one half of this story. I can say with certainty that anyone who attains Holy Buddhahood or a Christ-conscious state of mind will never say a word about having attained it, and would shun any kjnd of personal recognition or personal credit. They would simply disappear, psychologically, into the ocean of their/our infinite being, and give all praise to THAT. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 17, 2017 14:34:05 GMT -5
Yes, for most people, satori, which I interpret as SR, ends suffering, but the issue seems to be a bit more complex than Eric's video implies. Life and thinking continues after SR, and a sense of selfhood --in some degree or another--usually returns. This subsequent sense of selfhood is different than before because it's accepted as a natural aspect of "what is," and it comes without the strong sense of identification and volition that preceded SR. One of the reasons that Zen points to attaining a state of "no-mind" (mushin) and the value of continuing meditation and silent awareness following SR is that the path they describe doesn't stop with SR. The highest state in Zen is called "Holy Buddhahood" and that state appears to be equivalent to what some of us would call "Christ-consciousness." This is why I would only apply the term "enlightenment" to people who have become so one-with Source that they are only interested in the well-being of others and have no interest in their own. I suspect that many people have experienced a Christ-consciousness state of mind for limited periods of time, but the continuation of that state is apparently extremely rare, and I would happily confer the term "enlightened" upon anyone who exhibited that state for however long they exhibited it. I suspect that for that state to continue indefinitely, it would need to be accompanied by a state of no-mind. This is pure speculation on my part because I only know one half of this story. I can say with certainty that anyone who attains Holy Buddhahood or a Christ-conscious state of mind will never say a word about it, and would shun any kjnd of personal recognition. They would simply disappear, psychologically, into the ocean of their/our infinite being. is an interesting characteristic, because it doesn't seem to me that even the Bhudda himself got over it, as he sure had alot to say. I didn't mean that nothing would be said; I meant that no mention would be made of any personal attainment. Seeing how my statement could be misinterpreted, I went back and edited it for greater clarity. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 17, 2017 14:48:38 GMT -5
That final point is an interesting characteristic, because it doesn't seem to me that even the Bhudda himself got over it, as he sure had alot to say. I didn't mean that nothing would be said; I meant that no mention would be made of any personal attainment. Oh, ok, then in that case what the Bhudda said is exactly in line with it, and even goes beyond it to specifically denying personal attainment. I can understand how that denial could be naturally confusing to someone who recognizes the cultural impact of the man's life. That can be an interesting topic of dialog in and of itself, in that it can highlight the distinction between specialness and superiority. As you pointed out, everyone is unique, and some people have a talent for communicating or organizing or teaching or all three. Those talents are special, but they're the stuff of the relative and the conditioned. I guess I can imagine satori short of enlightenment with a feeling of superiority, but at this point I'd still be inclined to call the realization into question. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 19:16:46 GMT -5
Yes, as we all know, individual humans are incredibly unique, and they have vastly different experiences and types of realizations. I've only watched batgap.com a few times, but Carol watches it a lot, and the range of what people describe there about their experiences and realizations is truly mind boggling. Here is just a partial list of what people commonly report: 1. Cosmic-consciousness experiences (called "kensho experiences" in Zen), which can range from short and shallow to extremely deep and long lasting 2. Nirvikalpa samadhi, a deep state of meditation during which everything disappears except pure awareness 3. Falling into "the zone," which is a deep state of flow during which time, space, and selfhood disappear although perception of the "outside world" remains 4. Realizations both major and minor which expose various beliefs as erroneous or misconceived 5. Christ-consciousness states of being which can last from a few days to many years 6. Self-realization (called "satori" in Zen), which is a sudden event that involves seeing through the illusion of personal selfhood 7. Kundalini phenomena and so forth. Many seekers go through a long series of experiences and realizations that ultimately result in freedom and understanding, but a few non-seekers suddenly have the universe turned upside down and inside out in one split second. Ramana, for example, was a 16-year-old sports-loving teenager who had one single thought that led him into ten years of silent absorption in the Infinite. Some people who encounter the Infinite lose all interest in material possessions, but others don't. Some people who encounter the Infinite want to teach other people how to find it, but others are content to remain silent about it. How THIS will unfold in each human being is quite mysterious. What will happen next? Papaji's advice was "Wait and see." LOL Yesterday, after I mentioned this thread to Carol, and we were talking about the many ways oceanic consciousness, boundarylessness, or the realization of non-separation occurs in peoples' lives, she suggested that I watch an interview on batgap with Paul Morgan-Somers, an Englishman. Paul was another fellow who, at the age of about 15 or 16 was playing soccer in his backyard when he was drawn to stop kicking the soccerball and sit down on the steps of his parent's house. As soon as he sat down, he entered what he called "the luminous ocean of being," and it never went away. He lost all interest in his prior ambition to become a professional soccer player, and after reading some words in the Upanishads (which gave him some vague understanding of what had happened to him), he, like Ramana, left a note for his parents, and went to spend 5 years in a Vedanta monastery. Afterwards, he lived for a while as a hermit, and, while meditating one day, the name of a woman who he had never met arose in his mind, and he knew that he would marry her. He subsequently met the woman, got married, had two children, and now operates a small business--a gallery--that supports his family. From the batgap video it seems obvious that Paul is a very happy camper, and still doesn't know how to talk about "the ocean" in which he lives. What we call "reality" is much stranger and more mysterious than anything we might imagine. |
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Post by lolly on Dec 17, 2017 21:53:44 GMT -5
Relating this back to Eric's video, the limited Zen material I've read equates satori with the end of suffering. Is that the way you interpret the Zen sources, and what is your opinion on the question? Yes, for most people, satori, which I interpret as SR, ends suffering, but the issue seems to be a bit more complex than Eric's video implies. Life and thinking continues after SR, and a sense of selfhood --in some degree or another--usually returns. This subsequent sense of selfhood is different than before because it's accepted as a natural aspect of "what is," and it comes without the strong sense of identification and volition that preceded SR. One of the reasons that Zen points to attaining a state of "no-mind" (mushin) and the value of continuing meditation and silent awareness following SR is that the path they describe doesn't stop with SR. The highest state in Zen is called "Holy Buddhahood" and that state appears to be equivalent to what some of us would call "Christ-consciousness." This is why I would only apply the term "enlightenment" to people who have become so one-with Source that they are only interested in the well-being of others and have no interest in their own. I suspect that many people have experienced a Christ-consciousness state of mind for limited periods of time, but the continuation of that state is apparently extremely rare, and I would happily confer the term "enlightened" upon anyone who exhibited that state for however long they exhibited it. I suspect that for that state to continue indefinitely, it would need to be accompanied by a state of no-mind. This is pure speculation on my part because I only know one half of this story. I can say with certainty that anyone who attains Holy Buddhahood or a Christ-conscious state of mind will never say a word about having attained it, and would shun any kjnd of personal recognition or personal credit. They would simply disappear, psychologically, into the ocean of their/our infinite being, and give all praise to THAT. Nicely said. I think the person returns or you return to the person because 'the purification' (as I call it), alignment, integration in other words, has to be complete. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 17, 2017 22:48:01 GMT -5
Yes, for most people, satori, which I interpret as SR, ends suffering, but the issue seems to be a bit more complex than Eric's video implies. Life and thinking continues after SR, and a sense of selfhood --in some degree or another--usually returns. This subsequent sense of selfhood is different than before because it's accepted as a natural aspect of "what is," and it comes without the strong sense of identification and volition that preceded SR. One of the reasons that Zen points to attaining a state of "no-mind" (mushin) and the value of continuing meditation and silent awareness following SR is that the path they describe doesn't stop with SR. The highest state in Zen is called "Holy Buddhahood" and that state appears to be equivalent to what some of us would call "Christ-consciousness." This is why I would only apply the term "enlightenment" to people who have become so one-with Source that they are only interested in the well-being of others and have no interest in their own. I suspect that many people have experienced a Christ-consciousness state of mind for limited periods of time, but the continuation of that state is apparently extremely rare, and I would happily confer the term "enlightened" upon anyone who exhibited that state for however long they exhibited it. I suspect that for that state to continue indefinitely, it would need to be accompanied by a state of no-mind. This is pure speculation on my part because I only know one half of this story. I can say with certainty that anyone who attains Holy Buddhahood or a Christ-conscious state of mind will never say a word about having attained it, and would shun any kjnd of personal recognition or personal credit. They would simply disappear, psychologically, into the ocean of their/our infinite being, and give all praise to THAT. Nicely said. I think the person returns or you return to the person because 'the purification' (as I call it), alignment, integration in other words, has to be complete. A prolonged period of experience absent self-referential thought and emotion can be an identity breaker. The difference between that and few hours or even most of a day in flow is that it's happening consciously, but not self-consciously in reference to the personal self. I can imagine, and have read descriptions of something like that happening prior to self-realization, and then something similar to the old sense of identity re-emerges and re-asserts after the interval of experience free from self-reference ends. But self-realization reveals that old sense of identity for what it is, starkly, completely and permanently. From my reading and correspondences (mostly on this forum) it seems that neither flow nor any significant period of experiencing absent self-reference is necessary for the realization. Even in the abstract, this possibility should be obvious, as what is realized is unconditional, and thereby not causally related to any conditions. Self-referential thought and emotion usually (really, pretty much always) eventually returns, but after SR, it's always seen for what it is and never mistaken again for what it isn't. What I call the "person" in this rubric is a sense of identity, unconscious or not, with what comes and goes, and one symptom of the person is self-referential thought and emotion that happens absent the clarity of the nature of the relationship between the thought/emotion and the personal self. So in this paradigm, the person never returns after self-realization, which is why I agree with Eric's bottom-line on that point. Similar to disclaiming any superiority on the part of the Buddha, or describing the distinction between pain and suffering, this can lead to natural skepticism from the casual reader/listener, as it's common-sense to associate the person with self-referential thought and emotion. There are two simple ideas that pit against one another: that self-realization is the end of personal illusion, on one hand, but that there is a person there referring to themselves as they're speaking/writing about that realization. |
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Post by lolly on Dec 18, 2017 0:30:57 GMT -5
Nicely said. I think the person returns or you return to the person because 'the purification' (as I call it), alignment, integration in other words, has to be complete. A prolonged period of experience absent self-referential thought and emotion can be an identity breaker. The difference between that and few hours or even most of a day in flow is that it's happening consciously, but not self-consciously in reference to the personal self. I can imagine, and have read descriptions of something like that happening prior to self-realization, and then something similar to the old sense of identity re-emerges and re-asserts after the interval of experience free from self-reference ends. Well, when we say 'self awareness' in the personal sense, we really mean conscious awareness of what's happening in the mind we are aware of, emotions and reactions and so forth, it's just that we are aware to a degree, and not fully conscious of the deeper subtleties of mind/body, so we realise 'this feeling' has arisen, but at a relatively gross level, so 'self awareness' isn't quite complete and there is a process of seeing 'right through'. Yes, self-ralisation is 'the way you are now' regardless of impurity of the life form. That isn't caused in any way I can see, and what I find interesting is Zendancer's obvious insight, but also the continuity of deliberate meditation. With a complete purification that is completely dissoluted. (I made up that word for lack of one adequate). Really, all the emotional reactivity is self referential, but it's coming from a level subtler that we might not be conscious of. That's why I think the meditation is continuous regardless of self-realisation. Perhaps self realisation is where the sense of volition really all but ends, but the doings of unconscious still haven't been uncovered. Well, when the reactivity returns you might notice the self reference, and I would think the person, the ego, is little else than self reference. Basically, there is no self I am which isn't the self you are, but there are two main views concerning enlightenment, the first being the ND view of self realisation (buddha described that as 'seeing you), and the second regards the total dissolution of mind and body (which buddha continued to teach). I 'personally' (forgive my profanity) think the purification process is ongoing, and regardless of self realisation. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 18, 2017 1:51:50 GMT -5
A prolonged period of experience absent self-referential thought and emotion can be an identity breaker. The difference between that and few hours or even most of a day in flow is that it's happening consciously, but not self-consciously in reference to the personal self. I can imagine, and have read descriptions of something like that happening prior to self-realization, and then something similar to the old sense of identity re-emerges and re-asserts after the interval of experience free from self-reference ends. Well, when we say 'self awareness' in the personal sense, we really mean conscious awareness of what's happening in the mind we are aware of, emotions and reactions and so forth, it's just that we are aware to a degree, and not fully conscious of the deeper subtleties of mind/body, so we realise 'this feeling' has arisen, but at a relatively gross level, so 'self awareness' isn't quite complete and there is a process of seeing 'right through'. Yes, self-ralisation is 'the way you are now' regardless of impurity of the life form. That isn't caused in any way I can see, and what I find interesting is Zendancer's obvious insight, but also the continuity of deliberate meditation. With a complete purification that is completely dissoluted. (I made up that word for lack of one adequate). Really, all the emotional reactivity is self referential, but it's coming from a level subtler that we might not be conscious of. That's why I think the meditation is continuous regardless of self-realisation. Perhaps self realisation is where the sense of volition really all but ends, but the doings of unconscious still haven't been uncovered. Well, when the reactivity returns you might notice the self reference, and I would think the person, the ego, is little else than self reference. Basically, there is no self I am which isn't the self you are, but there are two main views concerning enlightenment, the first being the ND view of self realisation (buddha described that as 'seeing you), and the second regards the total dissolution of mind and body (which buddha continued to teach). I 'personally' (forgive my profanity) think the purification process is ongoing, and regardless of self realisation. Reactivity, in and of itself, is a simple function of being alive, and any competent saw bones with a knee hammer can demonstrate that point quite succinctly and wordlessly. Yes, I agree the meditation would be ongoing (consciously or otherwise) from the point of awakening until the point of what ZD has termed enlightenment. On one hand, I can imagine a world where everyone is enlightened by that standard, and it's a pleasant thought. Quite sublime, actually. But on the other hand, considering the possible distinctions between my notion of person and your notion of ego can be interesting and informative. Tolle equates the two the way that you have, but both McKenna and Niz, for example, had some provocative things to say that I perceive as related to the topic. To illustrate, Tolle's subsequent life choices leave him open to obvious criticisms about contradiction from people who might not quite resonate with or even really understand his message. The bottom line is that the life of a human being necessarily involves the appearances of entropy and contrast for as long as they're alive. The rhythms of the movements of that dream are always modulated (as in, conditioned) by the music of the individuated body/mind, and as you pointed out, the amplitudes of those mind movements are always ever a matter of degree. The master is not what shapes the music, but is instead, the music itself, and neither is the the mastery in the shaping, but rather, simply the performance, and there is no song that isn't a sum total of pure tones. The poignant ecstasy of Plant's invitation to the movies is about as good an expression of what I'm trying to convey as any. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 18, 2017 3:21:09 GMT -5
Yesterday, after I mentioned this thread to Carol, and we were talking about the many ways oceanic consciousness, boundarylessness, or the realization of non-separation occurs in peoples' lives, she suggested that I watch an interview on batgap with Paul Morgan-Somers, an Englishman. Paul was another fellow who, at the age of about 15 or 16 was playing soccer in his backyard when he was drawn to stop kicking the soccerball and sit down on the steps of his parent's house. As soon as he sat down, he entered what he called "the luminous ocean of being," and it never went away. He lost all interest in his prior ambition to become a professional soccer player, and after reading some words in the Upanishads (which gave him some vague understanding of what had happened to him), he, like Ramana, left a note for his parents, and went to spend 5 years in a Vedanta monastery. Afterwards, he lived for a while as a hermit, and, while meditating one day, the name of a woman who he had never met arose in his mind, and he knew that he would marry her. He subsequently met the woman, got married, had two children, and now operates a small business--a gallery--that supports his family. From the batgap video it seems obvious that Paul is a very happy camper, and still doesn't know how to talk about "the ocean" in which he lives. What we call "reality" is much stranger and more mysterious than anything we might imagine. Bakk: Thanks for this. I should have written, "Paul.....still doesn't know how to talk about the ocean WHICH HE IS," rather than "the ocean in which he lives." I think anyone who watches his satsang on this website will see that Paul doesn't have to meditate to remain aware of what he is, but he may be an outlier in the ND community. I found it interesting that he had only met one or two people who were equally intimate with "the ocean" and the "juicy wetness of it." |
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Post by lolly on Dec 18, 2017 7:00:17 GMT -5
Well, when we say 'self awareness' in the personal sense, we really mean conscious awareness of what's happening in the mind we are aware of, emotions and reactions and so forth, it's just that we are aware to a degree, and not fully conscious of the deeper subtleties of mind/body, so we realise 'this feeling' has arisen, but at a relatively gross level, so 'self awareness' isn't quite complete and there is a process of seeing 'right through'. Yes, self-ralisation is 'the way you are now' regardless of impurity of the life form. That isn't caused in any way I can see, and what I find interesting is Zendancer's obvious insight, but also the continuity of deliberate meditation. With a complete purification that is completely dissoluted. (I made up that word for lack of one adequate). Really, all the emotional reactivity is self referential, but it's coming from a level subtler that we might not be conscious of. That's why I think the meditation is continuous regardless of self-realisation. Perhaps self realisation is where the sense of volition really all but ends, but the doings of unconscious still haven't been uncovered. Well, when the reactivity returns you might notice the self reference, and I would think the person, the ego, is little else than self reference. Basically, there is no self I am which isn't the self you are, but there are two main views concerning enlightenment, the first being the ND view of self realisation (buddha described that as 'seeing you), and the second regards the total dissolution of mind and body (which buddha continued to teach). I 'personally' (forgive my profanity) think the purification process is ongoing, and regardless of self realisation. Reactivity, in and of itself, is a simple function of being alive, and any competent saw bones with a knee hammer can demonstrate that point quite succinctly and wordlessly. Yes, I agree the meditation would be ongoing (consciously or otherwise) from the point of awakening until the point of what ZD has termed enlightenment. On one hand, I can imagine a world where everyone is enlightened by that standard, and it's a pleasant thought. Quite sublime, actually. But on the other hand, considering the possible distinctions between my notion of person and your notion of ego can be interesting and informative. Tolle equates the two the way that you have, but both McKenna and Niz, for example, had some provocative things to say that I perceive as related to the topic. To illustrate, Tolle's subsequent life choices leave him open to obvious criticisms about contradiction from people who might not quite resonate with or even really understand his message. The bottom line is that the life of a human being necessarily involves the appearances of entropy and contrast for as long as they're alive. The rhythms of the movements of that dream are always modulated by the music (the conditioning) of the individuated body/mind, and as you pointed out, their amplitudes are always ever a matter of degree. The master is not what shapes the music, but is instead, the music itself, and there is no song that isn't a sum total of pure tones. The poignant ecstasy of Plant's invitation to the movies is about as good an expression of what I'm trying to convey as any. If you tap a knee and it jerks, that's a reflex. If you tap a knee pretty hard and the mind goes into agitation in aversion to the pain, that's reactivity. Reactivity is essentially the running from pain while chasing pleasure, avoidance, resistance, aversion coupled with craving clinging etc. To me, meditation is quite simply the cessation of that movement. In my meditations, there can be significant pain at times if I've sat for a long time, but that feeling people think is their agitation, to me, is a intensified sensation in my head, so the neural network is firing just fine, which is reflexive, but I don't become disturbed by it aka reactive. There is a level of extreme where I do start to become overwhelmed, so I know I reached the limitation of my balance of equanimity and being disturbed, entered the reactive aftermath of the experience. I as ego is always central to such disruption, and meditators must already know that reaction stops things from happening. For example, there is a common meditation experience of taking a fall, but then a fright as one grasps for something, and that's it, the fall stops. That's the sort of thing I call 'reactivity' - not like a knee jerk reaction. Are we speakin' the same language? I didn't really get the drift of the last thing you said. Care to elaborate? (and the video is 'not available', but I'll look it up on you tube - I'm partial to a bit o' Led). |
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